Steve Payne
Ontario WSIB shakedown: Self-employed contractors mad as hell
Canadian Contractor Business Insurance Insurer Liability Market Product ProfessionalThe protests against mandatory WSIB in Ottawa and Hamilton on Feb. 12 were very unusual events. Most of those people on the picket lines had never "protested" anything, publicly, in their lives. Renovators, in general, would rather be at work than waving banners. But they've had enough.
Renovation contractors and their subtrades turned out in large numbers for mass protests in front of Workplace Safety and Insurance Board (WSIB) Offices in Ottawa and Hamilton, ON, on Feb. 12 to protest the Ontario government’s new WSIB fee structure. As a result of the province’s controversial Bill 119, which went into effect Jan. 1, independent small business operators must now purchase WSIB insurance at rates that could drive them out of business.
Justin Dokter, a 24-year-old self-employed carpenter from the Hamilton area who was one of the main organizers of the protests, told Canadian Contractor that he would have to foist these mandatory new charges on his customers, since paying them himself is not an option. And that, he said, could put him out of work, especially given the cash competitors he has to bid against.
Before Ontario introduced Bill 119, independent contractors still had to be insured, but they could, as Dokter did, choose their own insurer. The mandatory new WSIB premiums range from 1 to 18 per cent of a worker’s insurable earnings. In his own case, “it’s 7 to 15 per cent of our gross income,” Dokter said.
“This (WSIB) costs six to seven times more than my private insurance and it’s an inferior product,” Dokter added. “ And it only covers me if I get hurt on the job.” He said his private insurance covers him no matter where an injury or illness occurs.
Henry de Vries, a local painter who attended the Hamilton protest, said it was the first time he had ever carried a picket sign in his life. He said he would rather have been working but felt he had no choice to but to join a protest because, with the new WSIB rules and fees, his livelihood is now seriously threatened.
“The biggest problem is the rates they’re charging that contractors have to pay,” de Vries said. He said he’d heard of contractors paying “from 6 per cent to 30 per cent.”
“It’s gotten to the point between that and income tax that it is hardly worth going out to work anymore. I hope the government takes a look at WSIB, does an audit on them, like the WSIB did on us last year. (They need) to take a look at how they take care of their funds.
It’s well known that the WSIB has not, at all, “taken care of its funds.” At the end of 2011, the much-criticized agency had an “unfunded liability” (obligations it already has to pay out premiums to claimants) of a staggering $14.2-billion. Some analysts estimate that amount has now risen to $18-billion.
Roger Tickner, a safety professional in the industry, says it’s clear to him that the Ontario government sees independent contractors as a new source of revenue to deal with that money pit. “It’s been created by people that really don’t understand the business as well as they should,” he said.
Husband-and-wife contracting team Martin and Corinne Templeman, MET Services, attended the Hamilton rally and told Canadian Contractor that the new fees were potentially crippling to their business.
“My clients are going to be paying 5 per cent more for my services. And I’ve got to compete against the black market who pay cash,” Martin said. “We need to create awareness that the government is asking small contractors, small business people, to pay for a deficit that they had no part of creating,” Corinne said.
Conservative MPP Randy Hillier is one of the more vocal opponents of the WSIB in the legislature. Since Bill 119 was first introduced in 2009, he has introduced several bills to create exemptions for small business owners. They were all defeated. The lobby against the new WSIB rules has a website at www.fixthewsib.ca.
Advertisement
Print this page
100 Comments » for Ontario WSIB shakedown: Self-employed contractors mad as hell
1 Pings/Trackbacks for "Ontario WSIB shakedown: Self-employed contractors mad as hell"
-
[…] […]
Justin Dokter statement of a precent of gross receipts is not correct -it only applies to the labour part of his invoice –unless he sells no product
Even that is not 100% correct as its based on his salary/drawing/he takes from his business
But it’s true it will really hepl the underground cash market
The amount is charged is claimed to be relevant to the amount of the risk. A skilled technician like myself as an electrician, has a lot higher income than a another person providing service with the same rate in a different trade. This is causing redundant charge for a more skilled person as the invoice we issue is what WSIB goes with and not the amount of personal injuries.
As and electrician and a cleaning person once they get injured they suffer the same physical loss but why an electrician has to pay four times as much as his invoices are a lot higher than a cleaning man services as new WSIB regulation allows them to charge on your labor portion. Guess what? If you do not indicate how much material you used, they go with %100 of your invoice. (highway barbarous robbery) White organize collar crime. Bloody legislators who got money paid to them under the table to pass the laws. Ministry of Attorney General taking course of silence, as it appears that up there not hearing our yelling, loss of our incomes, breaking apart our lives, families and loosing our shirts. Ministry of Attorney General, administration of Justice causing public loss of trust for the duty assigned to them and stipulate anarchism.
Every time I call into the WSIB I get a completely different quote based on the same information. Fact is, even the employees there don’t have a clue what you should owe. Just keep calling back until you hear a quote you like :p
-For my part when I received notice that I needed to include myself on my w.s.i.b. remittance starting in 2013, I immediately contacted all of my sub-trades and informed them that after 42 years in the commercial construction business that I was no longer bidding any more projects and I have begun the process of laying off my staff.
-As Justin Dokter states above w.s.i.b. coverage is more expensive and covers less than my private coverage.
-W.s.i.b. needs to de-solve and let the business owners purchase private coverage for themselves and their employees.
I think its great that there is so much interest in the Workers Comp issue. I used to work in the residential market. I really wonder if it is a problem for
Workers Comp to actually go after all those cash going jobs 1st before going after inocent legitatmate companies.
The regular businesses are doing there best in these troubled times.
It’s true that the government only goes after the person they know, rather go after the indentured or the cash for work trades.
We all need to keep our hats on and not quit.
Just let your MP know that they better start doing something about the illegetamate undergound economy, rather than start pointing the finger at everyone they already know.
Construction is the business that keeps all countries running. More legitamate opperators is not the problem it’s the illegitamte one’s.
Lets all have a level playing field. Or at least try before they go on a hunt to our bank accounts.
My thoughts exactly! It kills me to hear about all these business owners who pay their employees cash, they pay no payroll taxes, and no personal taxes while we who play it by the book are being fleeced at every turn. Why cant the government put more effort into catching the crooks instead of taking the easy way by making the legitimate business owners pay even more.
I totally agree with your statement, In the past, I operated a business and always had to deal with this “underground” market of cash and dash wannabe contractors. Frustrated with always explaining to potential clientel about the pros and cons of contracting their future projects out to Joe underthetable contracting was a common affaire. WSIB has a viable role in todays workforce, BUT, only if it’s properly managed and competitive with the private sectors, who all have to play with the same set of rules. First job at hand, crack down on illegal contractors, Secondly those dishonest individuals scaming the system with false claims and lastly incorparate a randomly selected panel ,per region, of contractors sitting on a committee on WSIB board…..
I’m not sure why our government wants to squash us as we provide much needed jobs. We seem to be an escape goat for all of the financial messes they have created. One thing that I do know is the labour unions are pushing hard to even the playing field. The larger commercial companies may survive all of the imposed regulations and fees but the residential contractors will not. At least not without having to scale back on their labour force. The problems we are faced with is every time they create another hoop for us to jump through the cash contractor becomes more attractive.
Why are they blind to this? How does this help us become more competitive? All I see is a society of fed up contractors who are struggling to survive. Providing quality work has always allowed my company to sail through the recessions. I don’t feel that way anymore. I’m struggling to find a reason to keep going on with a 30 year old business. I think scaling back and having one or two guys will be my only way to survive if at all.
I had the good fortune to spend 3 weeks in Florida this year. First vacation in a long time. I earned this by helping my wife’s cousin do his roof down there. It took us 4 days but the relaxation after that was great. What I did see is a state that has its crap together for contractors. We had to take out a permit for the roof and followed by 3 inspections. At first I thought this was a complete waste of time but with all the hurricanes I can see why. What I realized after is this was a great way to give the legitimate companies a fighting chance for survival. Permits are displayed in the window just like our building permits. If you didn’t have one you would be reported by other contractors working in the area. It wouldn’t be snitching as everyone would be on the same playing field so all legitimate contractors would win. For some reason we will report someone stealing from a clothing store but when they steal from our own mouths we turn our heads. Insurance companies would be able to pull the passed permit if needed. I know this doesn’t resolve the issue but maybe it would at least give us a fighting chance. I know there are ways to just pull a permit and say you did it yourself and still pay cash. But a lot of home owners would think twice about paying the fly by night if they had to go to this measure.
Sorry this is only about roofing but it would work in other trades as well. Maybe I’m way off topic and maybe it is a pipe dream but I’m getting desperate and I need to know I have a future.
Any comments would be appreciated good or bad.
As a company owner I have a very hard time competing with the cash fly by nighter. With the new WSIB law in effect I have to use less employes,or just do the easy thing and become a fly by nighter, they are making my decision pretty easy
Can or does anybody know what or if the other providences are doing?
A while ago, we had a round table discussion with contractors from across Canada. When we started talking about WSIB, the guys from the other provinces didn’t know what all the fuss was about. Almost every other province has managed to keep their books balanced and their premiums low.
Hi Robert
You might remember my case against the CSST in Quebec. The issue being the distinction between an autonomous contractor or an hourly employee.
I decided to challenge their decision and the veracity of their evaluation methods and criteria.
The CSST has recently created a new bureaucracy to deal with these issues.
You state that “most other provinces ” have managed to balance their books on premiums/claims.
Do you know if Quebec has sufficient revenue from premiums to be in the black?
I use Pencor ins and a Senior Mgr there told me that if Rev Can has deemed you to be independent operator WSIB backs off. I realize this puts you on way more radar than you may want but it seems to be true. The other point is that I did get an Independent Operator status from WSIB and there is no time limit on the form and those firms that I show it to when they are being Audited by WSIB have it accepted.
Please contact me 519-421-8237. Im an personal insurance advisor and know the trades are getting screwed. I want to find a way to get people private coverage and Im wondering if you found a way?
What about the injured workers that have lost everything g to an accident at work? The boss wasn’t paying Wsib insurance. The boss doesn’t have a ladder on site so he tells the student to climb the blocks.The student falls. The boss tells her to get in her car and drive home.The asshole didn’t call an ambulance….No hospital report ….until days later…..boss gets a fine and goes back to doing what he’s doing. What about the student? Nobody gives a **** about the kid that has lost everything and has to fight for health care for her broken body. She has to fight for every penny….every doctor visit….every prescription….then her body gets worse because of the poison they prescribe….then her mind starts going because all she wants to do is build houses. See how this asshole has made this system unbearable? Everyone should have insurance especially to cover workers WSIB IS A FRAUD….they have doctors working for them that refuse treatment when they see a case number and a worker that can’t walk…they are the biggest fraud going.Don’t comment if you have never been injured st work and have had to deal with WSIB because it’s hell. I hope they are audited by the unsbudmans office and I hope new rules are set in place for all workers who are on the up and up. Screw the crews that work under the table for cash…if they get hurt they have even money to be off because they haven’t paid any taxes on their under the table cash. It would be fair to everyone to have WSIB overhauled and audited. Something needs to be done and the government is not listening. This insurance needs to be fair to the employer as well as the employees.
Did you find a time
Way to not pay if you own the company and let the owner buy provide insurance.
I just paid my WCB in British Columbia for myself and my employee. We do refrigeration service and installation and my rate was $2.13 per $100. It is mandatory for workers and me as employer to pay.
There has been a serious push over the last few years to make sure all residential construction was covered and safe work procedures implemented.
I looked at some of the proposed rates in Ontario and they were substantially higher to the point of being absurd.
Dererk: To boot the WSIB has already increased the rates as of January 1 2013 and also INCREASED THE AMOUNT OF INCOME cap off. I look at the rates of Janitors compared to that of a siding guy and it is 26.8% higher to the construction industry.
Mike: That has been in effect for years with the CRA when applying for Clearance Certificates to work for contractors/builders or on any construction site. That only comes into play if the WSIB is trying to make you (as the subcontractor) deemed a worker of the the Contractor/Builder. You have to prove to both the WSIB and the CRA with proof of invoices (and not to ONE contractor/builder) tools, accounts with Suppliers, and then they rule you as truly being your own business. (Independent Operator) Independent Operators did not have to pay WSIB until this year and yes what I’ve written here was the way it worked. If you are a SOLE INDEPENDENT Operator with NO workers you cannot exempt yourself – nor can you exempt yourself if you have workers if you YOURSELF as the I/O step on the jobsite to work. The paperwork you speak of is from years gone by now – the law is here unfortunately and we just have to keep fighting to get it repealed POINT BLANK!
Robert: Check their WSIB rates compared to the Extortion rates in Ontario!
Gordon: You are speaking about the undergrounders (I’ve hand them to the WSIB on a silver platter and they have NOT ACTED ON ONE I’VE GIVEN THEM YET” We are legit and aboveboard and I don’t want my husbands business to pay on his earnings when we are covered more superiorly than that WSIB could even imagine supplying to us! The underground undercuts everyone, and BTW most of those underground CASH WORKERS don’t file income tax other than to say I’ve got NO INCOME, they don’t pay taxes they don’t pay into HST, they don’t contribute to the society but sure as heck when they get hurt they run to WSIB for a payout! (TRUTH) Anyone who is legit has a hard time with the fly by nighters but why is that your fault or my fault? It is the WSIB fault..get up off their chairs/pound the jobsites (they do in my area) and find the underground and for PETE’S SAKE WSIB WHEN I OFFER UP THE UNDERGROUND ACT ON IT…THEY could care a less! They just KNOW of the LEGIT businesses and are going to make us pay for the UNDERGROUND, I’d rather eat wooden nickels then give the WSIB a red cent!
Violeta: It has been my argument with the WSIB since the year 2002 when they started spewing they were going to make it Mandatory coverage to the ENTIRE CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY! The underground will get a LOT RICHER now because a LOT OF LEGIT BUSINESSES WILL GO OUT OF BUSINESS AND LAYOFF THEIR EMPLOYEES! No more income tax, no more HST collected, no more WSIB payments for employee, and guess what everyone in Business for themselves cannot collect EI, so where they going to go to feed their families WELFARE????
David: Well said they certainly spew out (the Government) that they estimate 140,000 businesses out there in construction BUT NO-ONE CAN COME UP WITH A NUMBER FOR THE UNDERGROUNDERS! As I stated earlier I’ve handed them over undergrounders and guess what they are still undergrounders!
Rosaire: Sadly that is going to happen more and more and not to just the little guy but the big CONTRACTORS/BUILDERS. The time to stand up to this is NOW by signing the petition and spreading the petition to everyone you know! WE 10,000’S OF thousands of us to BE IN THE PUBLIC EYE AND STANDING STRONG TOGETHER ON THIS ISSUE. Think about the petition and forwarding it and spread the word across this province. Randy Hillier has told me to keep it going and to EDUCATE the people and get them involved. I PLAN TO DO THAT without a PAID membership to any organization! some are planning to start an organization to represent the Businesses there are enough of them out there now. What needs to happen now is to EDUCATE the people across this province and get EVERY PERSON AFFECTED BY THIS BILL TO STAND ON THEIR OWN TWO FEET ALONG SIDE US TO HAVE THEIR VOICES/FACES/CONCERNS SHOWN VISIBILY.
Harry: You are absolutely correct the invoices have to be broken down to LABOUR (and it is charged 100% at your rate of premium) every $100.00 earned! Material should be separate on the invoice. New Tactic by the WSIB
I just did a calculation for 2011 to see what I would have paid in Wsib had I been required to, and then what I paid in other taxes. Wsib is charged on the amount I invoice, in short what they deem the labour portion, regardless of my expenses (guess they dont want you buying any other insurances)
Some interesting facts :
1. my wsib premiums amounted to more than my federal and provincial income taxes COMBINED.
2. My wsib premiums amounted to 60% of my net pay.
Seems to me that everyone I talk to at WSIB doesn’t understand that I am an Incorporated business. Somehow they feel that the can flout the laws of this country and charge me an almost 10% tax on money that is not even by Revenue Canadas standards taxable.
I’m thoroughly disgusted with this, and its sad that I have to consider closing my doors and going and getting a job.
HERES THE WAY OUT GUYS…. LISTEN. …
Start a 2nd company….solely intellectual providing expertise in your trade.NON CONSTRUCTION
IF A CONTRACTOR OWES YOU 10000 FOR EXAMPLE …..GIVE HIM 2 INVOICES….
ONE FOR 5000 PLUS HST …FROM YOUR CONSTRUCTION COMPANY
ONE FOR 5000 PLUS HST ….FROM YOUR NEW INTELLECTUAL COMPANY
By the time you pay the employees and materials from the construction company it will be broke with no gross to speak of.
the intellectual company being non construction will be immune from wsib
doesnt cost the builder a penny more and your guys are still covered by wsib
there is no law of how much you have to charge in CONSTRUCTION
there is no law against starting a new company
there is no law against having 2 companies
there is no law against a builder writing 2 cheques
insure him you will cover the cost of the 2nd cheque
YOUR RATIO MAY BE DIFFERENT FROM THE 50/50 EXAMPLE ABOVE …SET THE RATIO THAT BEST WORKS FOR YOU
GOD BLESS CONSTRUCTION WORKERS
please keep me posted
Well congratulations to the Ontatrio Liberals and WSIB. I just laid off both my workers and added them to the ranks of the unemployed which was just released; ‘Canada loses 55,000 jobs in March’. I can’t and won’t pay the extortion that the Ontario Liberals and WSIB want me to pay so I am giving you my workers and their families to look after. Well done McGuinty and Gwynn for driving good businesses out of Ontario with your brand of steal from the lower class to give to the rich. I’m done, I can’t deal with this crap any longer. This government will reap what it has sown. Wait til the coming months to see how bad it REALLY gets.
The Canadian Home Builder Association recently published an article stating mandatory WSIB would actually combat the pervasive underground economy by closing the loophole that allows contractors to style their employees as independent contractors.
However, what I’ve read elsewhere is this mandatory WSIB coverage will in fact help the underground economy. I know I’m commenting on this article quite late – but does anybody know why the Canadian Home Builder Association would make that claim – that it is in face combating the underground economy?
This is the article that appeared in the ‘Home Builder’ magazine: http://www.building.ca/news/mandatory-wsib-coverage-combats-the-underground-economy/1001997526/
You ask a good question. My first comment; Cash contractors don’t care if a loophole is closed or not. They don’t pay WSIB in the first place.
As long as the difference in costs between a legit contractor and a cash contractor is significant , the only thing that will combat the cash economy will be policing (forcing cash contractors to pay what they owe, or drive them out of the industry). The additional costs of WSIB will increase the difference and do nothing for policing.
Because they are not very smart .
Why is there nothing , or very little , in the news about this bill? Does anybody out
there in the media care about this issue. It will affect not only the contractors but also the consumers. The only ones it will not touch at all is the guys that work for cash and their customers, who by the way are responsible for the cash economy in the first place. If we all paid our fair share of taxes maybe we have a hope of not becoming another Greece.
I think the Toronto Sun is about the only newspaper that will cover something as specific to the industry as this. That’s why you have to keep reading Canadian Contractor!!
are you suggesting that if i was to start a small contracting company in
retirement and gross say 30,000.00 in labour fees, that i would b required to
abtain Wsib insurance, what would that premium cost me. and as a self employed person, would i be eligible for E.I, and should i being sending detuctions in for same. please let me know . thank you in advance.
You have to register, your premiums will be about 6-9% of your gross income. If you do mostly roofing you will pay about 14% Now if you work only for homeowners you can be exempt. One sub contract or commercial job and you will have to pay WSIB on all income in that quarter. You are not eligible for any E.I,
If you hire employees than you have to pay WSIB on all their income as well as take E.I and CPP off. Vacation pay at 4% and Statutory holidays must be paid.
Hopefully this helps
Well almost 4 months into my season and over 50% loss of revenue. Almost every job the homeowner has a cash contractor> Not just any contractor but my competitors for years. It sucks because I’m be forced out of business because I refuse to do cash. Estimated on a job yesterday and the client wanted to meet me today to go over details. Thought finally someone who cares about quality. A government worker in the building and planning division. Sat down only to be presented with 5 quotes from other contractors. Three of which were 700 to 1300 cheaper and all cash. A couple of years ago I would have been able to sell the job but not anymore. Talked about hiring legitimate companies and warranties to no avail. These companies have all the insurances and if something goes wrong the job is now on the books. Warranties still as far as I’m convinced would be void as there are not invoices. Never in my life have I been so mad. I used to be able to get by on reputation only but now I feel like I am being targeted by our government. I know there are parts of Ontario that are still good for legitimate businesses but London is not one of them. Maybe I’m just one of the unlucky ones who run into more cash customers than others I don’t know. What I do know is my family is suffering and after 28 years of having a great company I am now pissed off.
Our government says the WSIB was created to fight the underground economy. I don’t see how this tax grab is fighting anything but the poor legitimate guys who are fighting to survive. Want to fight the underground economy try and come up something better than a scam to recover your 14 billion dollar deficit that you created from mismanagement.
Why not at least have a drivers license or some form of Id on every invoice. I know this won’t prevent the cash guys completely but it will make it harder. They need to start calling all of the so called Kijiji companies and ask for their WSIB numbers and registrations. Do something than just create another tax we can’t afford. The underground economy is not paying this tax and many other things so creating it just put another nail in our coffins.
As an independent these wsib rates are off the chart as far as being able to support a person trying to make ends meet on a dailey basis.
What is the incentive to keep working if, all you are doing is paying the Gov’t ?
We should be able to buy our own insurance coverage which is cheaper,covering independents for 24 hours instead of 8 hours while at work.
I was always a proud Canadian.
What happened to freedom of choice? The important thing is to be covered with insurance!
I have never collected wsib – Why should the average worker have to pay for McGuinty’s incompetence while he is enjoying retirement?
Amen to that
WSIB is a scam not only in this new law but all together! I agree there needs to be a form of safety and protection and insurance for those that get injured on the job but this is ridiculous, How can our economy repair itself and bring new money into our societys if the government is just picki g our pockets for their share. We should have the right to choose oir insurer’s lets eliminate wsib, big time contractors/builders should just he forced to carry insurance from there choice of insurer and if you employ more than 5 persons than you must employ an on the job or on site safety supervisor! The rates we pay in wsib coukd easily cover that wage and creating these jobs will benefit our economy!
I sure hope the stress of WSIB harassing me for their money, and yes, I guess I owe it to them, and I do pay all my bills (maybe not on time, a contractors story, if we don’t get stiffed), doesn’t affect my work concentration so I don’t end up hurt on the job, and that would be a first ever in 17 yrs in business. I have to go out of business if this continues and make new arrangements to live, but I love what I do, my life is my work and my work is my life.
I have as well reported to the government and the disability officers the underground fraud people, they as well they rip off many people, and the police or anyone can or could do anything, I don’t get it !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Long time trader here, left trading because it was a corrupt industry and when you followed the money trail it always ended up in insurance or govt. The entire term workmans safety insurance is a sham. It should not be used in the same sentence as they have nothing to do with each other and its an insult to the working man. This product was created to take cash out of the hands of the person who they know has it. Of course they don’t care about the cash guy and the one man business working on roofs, those don’t make any money and there is nothing to take.
I have made a discussion to not do commercial jobs as I only have one on going commercial contract , but recently a few other business’s ask me for estimates, I had contacted Wendy’s Restaurant to say I would no longer provide the service the staff and higher ups have adored and praised me for years, then WSIB got the call to cancel the premium they are charging me. I am not letting this happen, WSIB has taken alot of income out of my business now, and I just can’t afford $3400.00 a year insurance and add that to the top of my invoicing, the more I make the more they get, NOT WITH ME, I am fighting back. I think the industry will take quite a hit for WSIB”S big plan for money WE earned. Where is this petition for me to sign and I will go to my MP. WSIB will get the $800.00 for the first installment and that will be it. GREAT MOVE WSIB< you have created a big problem and less money for lots of people.
I see a few comments here regarding WSIB and gov…the fedral nor do the provincial govs have any part of WSIB.Problem is this WSIB is in debt over a billion dollars, This is not the first time! A few years back they were.on the verge of going belly up, at that point the gov stepped in and helped them ou. As much as I would love to see WSIB go under as would any other contractor, the thing is if WSIB goes under thousands of WSIB employees are jobless. So they jack our rates to fix there mistake, and avoid leaving thousands without work. Of course our gov will bail them out again, they provide a service in witch we need,(yes its needed) and the gov especially dosent want to see that many people jobless! Less tax dollars for them.
Bottom line is this WSIB needs to stop over paying those who claim compensation.
I know a guy who was a temp at a factory he had to have surgery for carpal tunnel, now hes been in comp for over 2 years and they are paying hia tuition and his living expenses whike he goes toncollege.
I have to disagree with you that WSIB is needed. All that is needed is for the government to outline what kind of insurance contractors need to have, and then let the private sector supply it.
Robert I could not agree with you more. We met in Hamilton at the protest in February. I am so surprised that insurance companies are not fuming mad that they have this competition . More protest need to happen . I know we are all busy trying to make a living , but I`m done with government stealing from me . Just my thought . Thanks
You are 100% right, sorry when I say WSIB is needed I mean that only to the extent of insuring safe work place amd compensation for those who hey injured. But if private insurance companies can insure the same.thing foe more reasonable rates then good by WSIB…
But ar that point insurance companies will need to habe inspectors visitimg jobsites to ensure safty percautions are met.
That’s why we have the ministry of labour, the guys that drive around in those nice shinny white cars. Insurance is only that , insurance. Right now we are paying both to do the same job, wsib and M of L WSIB has to go !!!! They are a rip-off. Just my opinion.
We need private insurance. Simple. Let the government set the rules, let the private sector provide the insurance.
I would like to know when the next protest rally is.I will be first on the bus. Please let me know.
We will. And be right there with you.
I receive my WSIB welcome packet saying they appreciate my business and how they are good for ME. Like I have any choice, as many before me mentioned, better and cheaper insurance is not good enough for them. Reason being that the Government is not working with them, only WSIB so they can keep their thumb up our asses and know our every move for taxation.. All about the tax dollars. Sadly the brilliant ones do not give a shit about the little guy!
Almost equates to the Mob extorting for protection money.
i was in the mining industry in the 80s and we had to pay 20- percent back then, i quickly went to cash and never looked back, i remember a worker who was closing a load binder on a load and it popped back and gave him a bloody mouth, great workers, never fiiled a claim because i told him i didnt have coverage, ,,,yes thoose days r gone forever now, everyones a complainer now, a litte cut on the finger will cost u a lot of money good luck,, im thinking of getting in the homeowner contractor cash busness now, because this new law will drive prices up and make it more lucrative for cash deals,…. you cant stop us so dont try.. thats a lesson i learned from the big banks,, but the difference between me and the banks is that Idont pay payolla to the crooked politicians to look the other way, i fly under the radar, im off the grid
I just finished paying my audit from 2010, in 2012. Sure enough, we are getting audited again…like they haven’t had enough (just paid 30k) I am noticing I don’t have all my clearance certificates from 2011 and 2012. All of our contractors have accounts. Are they going to penalize us for not having the certificates?
Good question for Sean Keene. Where are you Sean?
Just to post an update the audit is complete and he didn’t care too much about having clearance certificates, all he seemed to care about is if the contractors had accounts and in good standing. But moving forward I am going to get ALL certificates to cover us, for the next audit because we know this won’t be the last one.
I was just doing the HST last night and when I calculated how much i’m me suppose to pay this month for WSIB, i just got a lump in my stomach and stay awake till 6am without sleep. All these extra taxes it’s just a money grab that could be so handy for people running small business like me. I already pay business ins. and this’s so outrages. My husband goes in a depression mood when I tell him where the money goes.
Last May, I pretended that i didn’t know about the changes, and they actually waved the little bit I had to pay.
You don’t need WSIB if 100% of your work is paid directly to you by homeowners. As soon as you do one job as a sub for another contractor you must pay premiums on all work you did for the reporting period regardless of whether or not it was for a homeowner or a contractor. As a contractor I would think that one way around WSIB would be to have the homeowners pay every trade directly and just bill the customer a management fee for running the job. Commercial work is a different story…
I’m a 1 man handyman doing residential repairs for over 20 years, registered with revenue Canada and insured for liability and personal injury for the entire time.
While working on a clients personal residence , I was offered the opportunity to do some light maintenance work at some “coffee shops” he owns, part of a large chain that are independently franchised.
Thinking this might be a good opportunity to grow my small business into the commercial sector, and wanting to do it right. I made the mistake of contacting WSIB to enquire about registering my business with them.
The “handyman” premium rate I was quoted was 9.1% on Gross.
This is to repair door closers, washroom door stalls, unclog toilets, replace toilets ,maybe paint washroom and the occasional drywall repair,when required etc… this is just small general maintenance.. WOW
If I was a plumber , to unclog that same toilet my rate would be around 3.6%
and a plumber could also replace a door handle .
So by working on these small “commercial” shops on an as needed basis,(once or twice a month) my gross income (residential and commercial) will now be hit with a 9.1% tax. How the hell do they justify this shakedown?
Needless to say, I passed on the opportunity.
My head is about to explode.
Funny thing is , I called my MPP Vic Dhillon looking for some sort of explanation for this and he was pretty much speechless. From his mouth “That doesn’t sound right ” what the hell is going on here ?
Hi Rob, welcome to the world of unfairness. I am also a home renovator with a few doctor offices I do small repairs in . No any longer . my clients are pissed off , cause they liked dealing with the little guy like me . This is a big rip off. just my thoughts for now . Do not vote Liberal in the next election . Thanks
I have a small business for myself and wanted to hire a friend and get him covered. I registered the business to get clearance but never paid any money and didnt hire him. They have been charging me ever since and I refuse to pay over $20,000.00 in bills with the WSIB considering i never remitted anything because it was zero and never employed anyone. WSIB is outrageous how much they want you to pay for the coverage you or your employees get. Now since i closed that business and have been trying to open a new one since the 2009 bill passing they will not wave my $20,000.00 bill and refuse to drop it and also refuse to give me coverage for my new business until I have paid the $20,000.00 bill… How is anyone going to pay that at a 9-5 job without running a business??? WSIB are a bunch of crooks.
I also think that more checking on the so called injured persons should be brought in to answer for ripping off the system. There are some ( maybe a lot ) that are still working for cash. I also had to lay off my employees and do my work alone . pretty much anything to do with government is unfair to small business. Maybe we should all go to the welfare line and demand that we are looked after, and let the municipalities do the bitching for us . They may have more success.
I have read all of the above comments and unfortunatly I have little else to add.
I have been in the construction industry for the past 28 years and a self employed renovation contractor for the past 18. and what we all are witnessing here is nothing short or disgraceful.
When and how did things get this distorted. W.S.I.B, as I understand is not even a government institution but is sanctioned by the government to deal out and enforce these drakonian rules with virtually no checks or balances enforced upon itself.
Talk about the tail wagging the dog!
I can work for a home owner and not be subjected to the 9.1% extortion rate that W.S.I.B. demands but the second I take on a job for another contractor or a buisness of any sort, my entire quarter year is ripe for the picking. And if your lucky enough to not have had work for a contractor or buisness and therefore did not submitt for one of the quarters good luck in obtaining a clearance certificate for when you next require one. It,s a complete do over.
Our local M.P.P.s seem to be completeley powerless to deal with any of this. citing the benifits of having a strong provincial insurance agenda.
They tell us that we sould be “ thankfull“ that if we are injured at work, than all our needs will be met to sustain us through the rehabilitation process.
Yea right! I thought that paying for my own policy for the past 18 years the policy that not ony covers me at work but at home or pretty much everywhere else was doing that just fine and oh ya for about 1/8 the cost.
Besides, What ever happened to free enterprise and a competetive market in the democracy that we live in. W.S.I.B. is the only choice we are given, mandated or rather dictated. We are told that we can either pay this one organization or pay the penalty, a rather severe monitary amount along with your usual summission or fold.
Is there no individual or institution out there that will help combat this grossly unfair, blotted and corrupt organization.
My good god what does the future hold for a strong free marketplace in Ontario.
Kevin
absolutely right
if this ends up going in the direction the government wants . Allot of us will be penny less and homeless . just what i worked all my life for .If change for the worse happens ,you will be able to dig up the past in the bottom of the nearest out house, with all the rest of the crap. Its hard enough to make a living , now we have to deal with more stupidity and greed.
My heart goes out to everyone, and I as well, I have been deeply affected this winter as homeowners pinch their pennies, and me too. I have wrote my letter to the Labour Minister ( no reply yet ) and signed petitions, so “when” is there going to be another peaceful demonstration to show the impact this has had on all of us now to date. WSIB is killing us contractors this winter. We all need to show the government that all these issues, Bill 119, the diesel fuel rip off, hydro, the corruption and scamming, this is not going to put up with anymore, if your family and friends care for you get them to help, as numbers are what we need. Let’s all stop Ottawa and Toronto with a traffic jam on the same day, nothing more has done anything since Feb 2013 that I know of. A complete stand still might get their attention if they are as well stuck in this traffic jam. I hope the trucking industry will agree. Is worth the days pay to make a stand ? But does it happen?, so far, NO, why not?, what do we have to lose?, or better yet, how do we change things now ? -Sensible, logical, and peacefully. –
This government has no idea how much damage they are doing. By the time they realize what has been done most of us will be in poverty.
The talk on the streets is if you can’t beat them join them. That is what I am hearing from my contractor friends. Accepting more cash deals is the word of the day. All this does is drive prices down and in the end we will all lose.Government revenues will diminish even more. The problem with our near-sighted government is they will tax us and service charge us more to make up the difference. This will only further feed the underground as contractors and consumers find ways to survive.
Our government needs to stop listening to the labour unions and start helping the millions of small and medium sizes businesses. Creating more regulations and red tape for us is just putting more nails in the coffin.
As a contractor for almost 30 years I soon will be taking my skills never to teach again. I’m only one of thousands of fed up veterans who will be forced out of business leaving behind generations of knowledge. The kind of knowledge that you can’t find in a book. We are also teaching our kids to stay away from the trades as it is a dead-end. This is not what our kids should be hearing from us but why would I steer my kids and grand-kids down this road.
This government needs to be stopped but for some reason we all just sit in our little cubicles. They have made it almost impossible for us to find the time to rise up and make a stand. We are so worried about hydro, gas, service fees, taxes and whatever other fees they have created that we feel overwhelmed. This makes us all just coil up in a ball and try to protect what we have left. We need to band together somehow but I don’t know if we ever will. What I do know is this wrecking ball of a government is not going to stop as long as the labour unions keep lobbying and we keep cowering and hiding.
We must remember that the government is supposed to work for the people not against it. We are millions strong and we do have a voice if we band together.
This has nothing to do with Labour. WSIB is a corrupt, self-serving agency of the government that benefits everyone except Labour and Small businesses.
I agree letting your kids learn a trade is like teaching them only to dislike or hate any one who is not part of the group. Read the news blogs any one with out a license is classed as incompetent and unsafe , no mater how many years they have done the same job.
It seems that by focusing on the one and only job they haven’t been taught the skills of life, by not learning and taking a interest in other skills that are out there .
Basically narrow minded unable to believe that someone can actually do the job without a license. It has been done for years and years.
How many people fix there own cars ,homes etc. why must we and our kids not have a good life. They should have the right to pick and choose what they want to enjoy doing in life,
I am proud to say I know how to do alot of different trades , well enough to make inspectors and owners happy.
do they really need more
I recently posted here and after seeing many more posts I’ve decided I’ve had enough. I can not start a second business because of wsib. I will be protesting in front of the wsib office at Jackson square starting this week on wednesday April 2nd.
I will be making “wsib needs to change” picket signs. Anyone who is not presently working or just want to show your support, please protest with me. The more we protest the more they will see that it needs to change. Power and change is in numbers. The time is now.
Why do I have to pay according to my GROSS income on my WSIB premiums!?
It’s bad enough they are FORCING me to pay this extortion! Why should I have to pay on top of the 13 percent tax I am FORCED To charge and get nothing for it!
I am at the end of my rope. Just give me one more reason and I will quit and go so far underground you’ll never see me again! Oh wait, there’s the illustrious “College of Trades” coming soon, so call me a groundhog.
I hate paperwork and filling out forms. I’m a carpenter, damn it!! Not a secretary!!
I work with my hands. That’s all I know how to do. I’ve been able to make a living at it this far (30 years) but that’s it. I’m no millionaire. But in the eyes of the Ontario government I’m making more than I deserve.
I am a small business owner with 6 employees, doing industrial maintenance, in business since 2001. When I started the business I required WSIB and opened an account. I was asked a few questions and then placed in a rate group. In 2011 when wsib went online, I found out that all of my competitors were in a different rate group that was about 60% less than the one my company was placed into. When I contacted wsib to go over this, I was immediatly (coincidently) they said flagged for an audit. After the audit they determined that I was placed in the wrong rate group and changed us to the proper one. They credited me $1500 which was an overpayment for the prior 3 month period. I contacted them and said I had overpayed for 10 years and was owed about $60,000, they stated thst they can only go back as far as Jan 1 of the year the error was determined…..but if you underpay they can go up to 7 years to get what is owed……just another cash grab by a corrupt government run entity!!
The WSIB is nothing more than a corrupt, wasteful, bureaucratic jugger-naught that carries billions in debt masquerading as a benevolent and friendly workers insurance plan for the people.
It has been designed to eventually pulverize all small, independent non-unionized contractors in Ontario and drive them out of business and into the unions arms and into the Liberals voting stations.
The unions already control infrastructure and large scale development construction projects and now they want all of the small reno work, handy man, custom home building trades jobs and the work-for-homeowner market too. And they will get it too thanks to their corrupt Liberal friends down at Queens Park who will give them what they want in exchange for votes.
Bottom line is independent trades people have four choices: 1) Join a union, become a cog in a wheel working for someone else with a finite salary for the rest of your life. 2) Foolishly continue on as a small contractor business owner who makes less and less every year until the government finally raises premiums and taxes to a point where you will be forced to lose your shirt and close up shop. 3) Close shop now and find another career 4) Move your family and your business out west where workers comp is half of what it is here.
Those are the painful and pitiful options in Ontario for small business entrepreneurs in the trades. Independent contractors here will all be crushed sooner or later its just a matter of time. The minute I realized that I would have to give 1 work hour per day in wages just to pay the WSIB premium my decision to find employment in another industry was a no brainer.
Good luck brothers, you’re going to need it.
The great Friday, 20/02/2015, issue by election at north Ontario. The Liberal mask its failing off their faces, now all Ontarians apparently can see what kind of propaganda is at Queens park. Now its clear how these side agencies were created, as tax avenues for the Liberals, avoiding the blame of anti-competition act, federal law, on our tax dollars in exchange of political seats and board seats.
Corruption at the highest levels, can’t be more clean then that, thanks Liberals for screwing up, robots don`t have the mind in their own, they need to be programed, apparently some input program didn`t go to the right place. Maybe the next one, will be, the last Provincial election was rigged too, who knows.
Should all three be charge with criminal act, bribery, I believe so, IMHO,
They may not getting away with it.
In the mean time the two Liberals Ministers should step down, including the Premier, as the OPP leading the investigation.
Its scandals after scandals nothing more, they can produce, only bills of prejudice.
The gas plant was about political seats, now the same matter occurs in different form, apparently its time for these crooks to go.
All the bills they had pass in majority should be throw into the garbage can where it belongs. The decade of political misery needs to end.
Fuk it, I say we all go cash based and fuk the government who have now completely made it impossible for us to employ or make any profit. The clients should be very loud also, this will increase the number of people who aren’t professionals and your work done on your house, business or anything else will be done by what the government wants. People who live off the grid and those that pay lose jobs and lay people off. I’m done and my doors are shutting down. Fuk you Bill 119……I will go work for cash. If that’s the only say I can survive then so be it. Sorry to all those who like me played and paid religiously. I’m done and so are my employees.
White Collar Crime, Organized Crime, New forms of Slavery a product of Conservative Government of Canada.
The new legislated laws came as part of massive money making agendas from Mr. Harper’s government whose government done nothing harm to small business and hardworking class families who struggle for their lives, feeding communities…..
WSIB a lucrative, promising way of making the money in the name of law, protecting workers from injuries and providing support.
However, WSIB unfairly, unfitted charges, false affidavits of their staffs to accompany statement of claims against un defended small business owners and companies, and obtaining with orders through judges who are already in tune with them, by means of “Rules of Civil Procedure” “Summary Judgment Section” without following summary judgment rules, ironically and hypocritically obtain orders and then enforce them.
It is primitive, barbarous, unfair and predatory conduct of business by WSIB and coordination from administration of justice that allow abuse of process of Court procedure by these thugs at WSIB.
WSIB is a very organized crime, who has found the way of collecting money in the name of law and protection of worker interests(live by your fear), then, funneling the money through their organized crime such as contractors involved with WSIB such as maintenance, renting their building from landlords that are in cahoots with the organized crime and then getting kick backs, schools for injured with high charges for WSIB to pay for courses and trainings that there is no job market for them, buying stuff from their own people with higher charges and then kick backs, favors, etc… then bonuses, company cars and lot more that funnels all of the money earned from hardworking business owners and workers to feed their luxury lives in that organized crime
WSIB has brought unrepairable damages on our hearts of our families by driving us further to poverty and have caused anarchism and distrust to our administration of our justice system.
our Justice system from Justice knows only the gesture….
Mahatma Gandi once was asked: What do you think about certain subject…. he responded, you should have asked what people of India are thinking about that subject and not Gandi…..
The idea is WSIB has been only a harm and it would not go away
http://itnjcommittee.org/projects/contribute/
A notice for corrupted politicians, times have changed, the ITNJ is already active, most of your corrupted laws, either are in an urgent need to be changed or you most likely face the new music, there is no immunity any longer for you.
Remember you got elected for a public service, not to serve corporations economic interests, lobbying interests, side ways agencies, with the purpose of defrauding, economic des-vantage, bad faith, corrupting, selling private info to a third party, or portion of it, like the OCOT can do, maybe others too.
Remember, the day of reckoning is coming for you, corrupted politicians. Anything deemed corrupted done by you can be filled in this International court of justices. So time for you to star undoing the corrupted rules, regulations, legislations, acts and so one, to serve those you sworn to serve with integrity.
Biggest cash grab to pay outstanding deficit just forces the honest contractor underground.
Here in Alberta small operators have the option to carry wcb on them selfs and if i understand that is what you are talking about. We also have an option as to the amount of coverage we pay for. rates start at 3 % and go up from there. I myself pay 4.68 % on myself. I Have no problems with this yes it can jump quite fast is I have high employee expenses but that is why I choose to work solo so I keep that cost done.
WSIB should be charged under the Consumers Protection Act for obtaining money from unsuspecting self-employed contractors and providing substandard service at unreasonable rates
Just another Ontario rip. They won’t be happy until we are all on pogey.
Hi,
I have been looking for someone to install my kitchen cabinets and cut/install my stone counter tops.
To date all the small self employed installers I’ve spoken to do not carry this insurance.
My question is if it’s legal to hire any of them and if so what if any are my responsibilities. Will I have to purchase the insurance for them so they can work for me?
Thanks in advance for any help given in this matter.
Marie
8, while carrying out a search warrant relating to a separate crime” involving Taylor, authorities came across the photos on Taylor’s mobile phone, the testimony states.
I AM A INDEPENDENT WORKER PAINTING PARKING LOTS I MAKE AROUND$ 15000 A YEAR NOW I HAVE TO PAY 7.5 % PLUS REG INSURANCE BUY PAINT , MACHINE PARTS. PAINT THINNER ETC SO IM IN THE HOLE $5000.00 BEFORE I EVEN START AND I MAKE 15000 NEEDLESS TO SAY IM DONE GREAT JOB KILLING SMALL BUSINESS IN ONT WELL THAT WILL BE TAX MONEY THEY WONT BE GETTING FROM ME NOW AT THE END OF EVERY YEAR. YEP GREAT JOB . AND WSIB HAS DONE NOTHING BUT RIP ME OFF EVERY TIME I TURN AROUND BILLED FOR THIS THAT AND THEY GET AWAY WITH IT WELL NO MORE MONEY FROM ME EVERY AGAIN I HAVE TO PAY THEM BEFORE I KNOW WHAT I HAVE MADE TO THAT IS THE MOST ASSININE OR JUST PLAIN STUPPIDEST THING I HAVE EVER HEARD BILLED THEY SEND ME A BILL EVERY MONTH FOR WHATEVER THEY WANT OVER AND OVER WHO IS WATCHING THERE PRACTISIS HMMM BULLSHIT ALL OF IT
the ontario and canadian governments are OUT-OF-Control with theri mandates on workplace safety etc etc. More red tape, more paper pushing and no net impact.
I am a excontractor because I can’t afford to keep the doors open.Now that I have shut down my business they continue to harass me with bills that are a guess.None of the bills are accurate and they insist that I pay them.costing me more money. Wisb keeds be scrutinized to find out who is responsible for these kind actions and be fired on the spot
http://www.occ.ca/issue/debt-and-deficit/
On the news today 17/03/20016, 15 million grants for wind mobile.
Yep, they make you pay for what you shouldn’t and give grants to wind mobile, 15 million interesting, where the hell they got this founds?
That’s how idiots work.
Welcome to the wonder-full world of democracy.
You pay if you work, income tax, you pay to work, fees, licenses, permits and so on. You pay for all the tools you need to perform work, tax. You pay for things you may will never get. Like WSIB, other insurances too. You pay more tax’s on any kind of utility bills.
You pay to drive, to fill your car’s gasoline/ diesel, tax, also you pay for car tests you don’t need. You pay for plate renovation sticker every year by your birth month/day, like a discrimination or a punishment, more tax. You pay car’s insurance and home/ business, tax. You pay for your home property, tax, or anyplace you leave.
If you have small children everything you buy for them more tax. You pay some food tax, some shoes tax, some cloths tax, beer and wine tax, plus others. You pay for schools tax, including books, calculators, computers, and all stuff you may need, college and university, fees, grounds residence tax.
You pay public transport tax, bus, taxi, or others.
You lose your job, you enter into a punishment for two weeks none payment, sure its a tax, or a discrimination.
what you don’t pay?
You can go to church but not pay tax, they will take whatever left you have in cash free of tax. Their properties apparently don’t pay property tax either.
Isn’t this the wonder full democracy we all have?
Next time you vote , vote for to fire all of them, may make demo-cracy more interesting.
Welcome into the world of taxation, have you wake up yet?
Those you had voted for, waste all of these tax’s and still want more.
The free word, the free society, the free thinking, only when you look trough your window. You may have free sun light, free air, maybe some free rain, only God knows for how along. You maybe getting free radiation from fukushima, cooking us inside out.
Its the WSIB and all the others side agencies franchises, money collectors? Most likely in my view, what about yours?
Full Definition of franchise
1 : freedom or immunity from some burden or restriction vested in a person or group
2 a : a special privilege granted to an individual or group; especially : the right to be and exercise the powers of a corporation
b : a constitutional or statutory right or privilege; especially : the right to vote
c (1) : the right or license granted to an individual or group to market a company’s goods or services in a particular territory; also : a business granted such a right or license (2) : the territory involved in such a right
3 a : the right of membership in a professional sports league
b : a team and its operating organization having such membership
So the Ontario Government sold the trades people to these franchises, for money purposes, like the old way of slavery.
The evolution of slavery, the tactics our governments use to still our money. Where is our freedom?
Did you, trades people consent to this bullshit? Apparently not, these franchises trick you into sign their agreements, once done, you became their slaves. You agree to be in their bondage, that’s why they need your signature, you were not forced, you became voluntary in a trick form.
The government has gone after the businesses who are the least able to pay. Another short sighted decision by a government who is more interested in listening to their corporate buddies than doing what is best for Ontario. Independent contractors are the least able to pass on these costs to customers and small businesses are the real job creators in any economy; hiring various labourers and apprentices. Shame. Approximately 30%-35% of workers do not have WSIB coverage and many of these jobs have less risk of physical injuries than labourer and sub-contractors. ALL employers should be required to be part of WSIB and all premiums need to be lower especially when one considers the challenges faced by private contractors. Retail, banks and Insurance companies should be forced to pay into this plan, this would then reduce the level of premiums from other businesses.
That said; WSIB hasn’t been paying for injuries and disabilities anyway in most case. Perhaps WSIB will pay for short term injuries but they haven’t been paying for the permanently disabled now. Injured Workers and Poverty Survey 2010
Many Losses, Much Hardship
The Real Impact of Work Injury
FAST FACTS
• Before injury, 89% were employed full time; after injury 9%
• Nearly one in five lost their homes after injury
• Nearly one quarter had moved in with family or friends at some point after their injuries
• One in five injured workers could no longer afford a car
• Food bank use rose from 5 to 77 people after work injury
• 20% reported an overnight hospital stay the last 12 months (most because of the work injury) compared with 7% for the general population of Canadians
• Over half had not been able to afford medications in the past 12 months
• 57% of injured workers in the study were unemployed
For more information: wwwinjuredworkersonline.org
So where are employer premiums going? One only needs to look at Ontario’s sunshine list where their are 100s of WSIB workers making well in excess of $100,000.00 plus bonuses for denying and limiting benefits to injured and disabled workers who are being forced into years of appeals for legitimate benefits. Management has introduced illegal policies that cut benefits and services of permanently disabled. Therefore, injured and disabled workers are not receiving the benefits promised at 85% of wages and health care coverage; thousands have been forced onto welfare and to commit suicide. Where else are these premiums going? Rebates in the form of experience ratings. Businesses are fined after workers have been injured and killed then WSIB turns around and provides certain big businesses huge rebates that are well in excess of these fines. This basically results in these certain businesses receiving a refund for the premiums paid into WSIB. Who are these big businesses? I do not know but I can only guess they are supportive of this government. Many policies and practices by WSIB’s management are illegal and criminal since WSIB was suppose to be independent, non-adversarial and gathers of information for the administration of social benefits to injured and disabled workers. Much like EI is for the unemployed where legitimate benefits are to be paid in full. The WSIB system is suppose to fair and unbiased for the benefit for all. This has not been the case for many years since some businesses are not paying their fair share of premiums leaving some to pay more tan they should. WSIB workers are way over paid for the work they do. WSIB should not be paying huge fees for doctors and clinics to rubber stamps benefit denials. Corruption!! All law abiding citizens need to let WSIB and the government know that this will not be tolerated anymore. Whether this is through protesting or through a Class Action Lawsuit for WSIB’s decisions that are illegal, patently unreasonable and beyond their authority. Businesses and Labour need to unit against this common corrupt agency, WSIB.
WSIB = CROOKS
F*** WSIB, AND THEIR BULLS*** MANDATE, IT’S ALL A SCAM
To make matters worse, these bastards don’t pay claims so they can pocket the fees .
How are we meant to stay in business ? The market is flooded with people doing jobs for cash making it hard enough to compete already. People are operating eligaly. With no insurance, no legal company name, no bank account, evading taxes left right and centre and now all the people that do operate legaly and do pay taxes are forced to pay for everyone else. They should be going after all the cash workers and the home owners paying these people cash and avoiding HST which is also a form of tax evasion. The black market is destroying the industry and needs to be dealt with.
To my understanding I’m considered an ‘independent operator’ by the WSIB. I work alone, but under the name of my incorporated business, as a sub-contractor of large renovations business. While the general contractor supplies all the principal materials, I provide all my own tools and incur various expenses that I can’t bill for, such as hardware and other supplies that are used in my work. I also incur substantial travel costs that I cannot bill. Am I correct in believing that I cannot deduct any of those expenses in calculating my WSIB premiums?
I have to make payment plan with wsib inorder to settled my bill. And it is painfull because I am the provider for my family ,I am in need of dental work for my self and I just cant afford
to provide these simple thinks.So I go without see doctors for my back pain so I can pay wsib!!!
There are many Injured Workers FORCED into poverty, bankrupt, or homeless, and on Welfare, by the W.C.B./W.S.I.B. Some even commit Suicide.
The Workers Comp Systems benefit WCB EMPLOYEES, Employers, Lawyers, Government and least of all the Injured Workers.
What was once the “Meredith Principles” are now a Chapter of “Animal Farm”.
Basic Laws (Thin Skull Rule) have been stripped from the Injured Workers, and Government has bestowed their rights upon themselves- for which they Profit.
WCB/WSIB use their own Medical Advisors to Deny Claims and FORCE Injured Workers Back to Work- which in many cases is against their Family Doctors and Independant Specialist’s Advice- so they can Have Big Bonuses.
There are many Permanently Disabled and Injured Workers and Veterans looking for Justice:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/110338662763574/
Direct flow solar heater-The first type we’re going to discuss uses your pool pump to
flow the new water. In turn any infections could be spread unless the pool is sanitized with chemicals.
There are no moving parts within the device itself, which makes it a fairly robust
product.
All I can say is W.S.I.B IS DRIVING ME INTO BAKRUPTCY!! private insurance would be far cheaper and cover me better
The WSIB, stands for Waste Squanders Insane Bustards.
Apparently this insane apparatus CEO eats money for breakfast, and dinners, does not look like a human, knowing so many injured people in need getting paid miserable amounts and he gets all the undeserved money.
Our society became insane to a point of economic vampirism.
Some of our politicians, became economic terrorists, favor their cronies using the public founds, passing laws to protect them and their crooks. Political parties became majorities, of the minority of the voting mass. Should never be allowed, if popular vote under 51% no body wins, ( vote again in a transparent system ) who represents the ones refused to vote for this insane system? GG’s, LG’s, and all government apparatus, including senators should be public voting.
This political so called majority of nothing appointing to many chosen friends for CEO grab positions, its insane, that’s why the WSIB became the gold caw for many, like so many others.
I hear all these ppl whining yet the overages and bad jobs they drag out on a large scale to most clients is ridiculous so i really dont care…ur in a business to screw ppl over with overpriced labour and material charges so go screw yourselves…
What a thoughtful, intelligent post!
The WSIB when was founded was to help those in need, in case of construction accidents with long suffering health issues, with great intention. But when politics came along and infiltrated the WSIB, it felt out the real purpose and became deception org, attractive machine for money making necros.
Politics: “Poli” a Latin word meaning “many” and “tics” meaning “bloodsucking creatures”.”
Ask your self what had and still happen in Ontario economy, can we count the tics ?
Now next time you vote you know who you are voting for.
They are thieves, plain and simple. For all of the gouging that they do, good luck getting fair treatment and responsible management with your case file if you ever, God forbid, require it.
I have a friend who paid his premiums that got injured on the job. They went through the legal motions, a few sessions of therapy and have now washed their hands clean of this gentleman. He cannot take two steps without the use of a cane yet they have deemed him fully rehabilitated.
This is nothing more than government sponsored highway robbery perpetrated by a crooked and inadequate organization.
Hi James Tobon, I suggest your friend to contact the CBC to expose these WSIB crooks, it may work. The CBC exposed the TD bank unjust and unethical matters just recently, which the rabbit hole is much deeper. May soon be known to the public what the TD and maybe other banks are doing. Einstein was right E=mc to the square, Elites Master Corruption to the square, can’t be any further from the truth of what we the public are experiencing.
I think again our government is stealing our hard earned money because they cannot control how they misuse funds. Again they waste funds on how to steal our livelyhood.
They do not even know internally know why many rules are put in place. Try to call them on an issue which puts ripples in the water they cannot nor will they be able to give a straight answer. When will the government of Canada stop stealling our livelyhood.
Anyone makes any simple mistake and you are a criminal. If the government makes a mistake they tell us to shut up, take it and pay up.
Our government says we’re ndependant but communism is write on mandated laws.
The system benefits Employers/WCB and Government- Least of all the employees!
Many Veterans and Injured Workers in Canada are going Bankrupt, in Poverty, On Social Assistance and Denied Medical Care- Some unfortuantely, end up in Jail, or Commit Suicide and Murder.
Repsonse from the Federal Government’s MP Colin Fraser is that it is a Provincial Matter- but they are going to make a Committment to VETERANS.
The Workers Comp Systems benefit WCB/WSIB EMPLOYEES, Employers, Lawyers, Government and least of all the Injured Workers.
WCB/WSIB was Created by the Federal Government – which they Forfeited Injured Workers Rights to Sue Employers, for Compensation and Medical Care for their injuries.
What was once the “Meredith Principles” which the WCB/WSIB were based on (in Canada), now reads like a Chapter of “Animal Farm”.
Basic Laws (IE: Thin Skull Rule) have been stripped from the Injured Workers, and Government has bestowed the Rights of Injured Workers, upon themselves- for which they Fine and Sue Employers for their Profit.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search…
WCB/WSIB use their own Medical Advisors and Staff, – (some who have no expertise in the field of Medicine or Law) to Deny Claims and Downplay Injuries, to FORCE Injured Workers Back to Work- which in many cases is against their Family Doctors and Independent Specialist’s Advice
thestar.com:
“A November report by the Ontario Federation of Labour and advocacy groups alleged the board was systematically disregarding the advice of injured workers’ own physicians in favour of so-called “paper doctors” — physicians who review medical evidence on a workers’ file without even meeting them. ”
https://www.thestar.com/…/wsib-stands-by-use-of-paper-docto…
Some Injured Workers experience Additonal Injuries through their dealing with the WCB/WSIB. WCB/WSIB avoid paying benefits to Injured Workers, by saying there is suitable work available, yet- this does not employ Injured Workers; nor, does it pay the bills. WCB/WSIB considers an Injured Workers Income for benefits- and takes into account, that if they were not working prior to their injury, they should not be entitled to income.
WCB/WSIB Employees get Big Bonuses to Lower Claims, for the Employers- and Employers get Lower Experience Ratings or Premiums, and Rebated from Investments made by the WCB/WSIB with their Premiums, whom are the Sole Shareholders- In this Non Profit Organization.
Most Workers whom are Permanently Disabled or Injured fight Appeals, for years with WCB/WSIB and most often they do not come. Many other Disabled and Injured Workers’ give up because the Appeals are Long, and Exhaustive and they do not get Proper and Adequate Representation for their Relentless Appeals.
The Workers’ Con Boards have FAILED MANY Permanently and Disabled Injured Workers and Veterans around the World. There are many Permanently Disabled and Injured Workers and Veterans looking for Justice!
https://www.gopetition.com/petition/19942.html
MPP Colin Fraser, was recently on the Radio Y-95 – Talk Show -“The Weekender” (Jan/22/17), but would not address these issues (and I was disconnect TWICE and could not fully present all of this information)- and he had suggested that I contact him in person; to Discuss my Personal Issues-However- this should be a PUBLIC MATTER!
Many of these things I talk about like Lost Wages/ Health Care and Benefits for Injured Workers was supposed to be coved by Employers and the Premiums they pay – Under the WCB/WSIB SCHEME-and the “Meredith Principals- ” NOT THE PUBLIC”! The “Meredith Principles” stated Injured Workers’ should not be a Burden on Society; nor, their family.
Every Disabled and Injured Worker, whom is on Social Assistance, or Disability Pensions, or receives Health Care/Medical Attention and Medication and is not able to work from their Work Related Injuries; if it is not being coved by WCB/WSIB;- as it is supposed to be Covered by the W.C.B./W.S.I.B through Employer Premiums Paid is “FRAUD UPON the PUBLIC” . That was the “Historic Compromise” the Federal Government Legislated through “The Meredith Report” which WCB/WSIB was Created. Yet; sadly many Permanently and Disabled Injured Workers, are being Mistreated and Denied Benefits and Medical Care through a BIAS and CORRUPT SYSTEM!
http://drkuntz.blogspot.ca/
Legislative Assembly of Ontario – July 5, 2012
“I also have here, under the Detrimental Reliance Act, estoppel, and I believe you are in the law department, sir? Yes. I think you will understand where I am coming from here. The meaning of estoppel is assertion of facts on which another relies, assumption of position, which if not maintained, will result in injustice to another, concealment of facts. Now it is obvious here today what Mr. Gillis had told you, on February 17, 1998, the final appeal was put through and the three member Nova Scotia Appeal Court threw it back to the compensation board and told them to pay the chronic pain. This is on February 17, 1998. On February 26, 1998, this gentleman was told that there was no chronic pain. Do you understand where I am getting here with the dates? This man was misrepresented. He was misled and there was an unjust done to this man, not only to him but to other injured workers who went to these ADR hearings. What you have to understand is that you put yourself in the position of an injured worker. Now you gentlemen come to this side. Come live with an injured worker for a day and see what he goes through. You have a gun to your head when you go into these ADR hearings. ”
“It is like a gentleman told me, he said it is like taking a rubber tube or a dinghy and putting it on the government wharf and having three holes in it. They are telling you to go and swim to the Joey Smallwood. If you make it to the Joey Smallwood with that rubber dinghy with the holes in it, then we will give you what you deserve but if you don’t want to take that chance, we will give you what we think we are going to give you. Do you think that is fair to the injured worker of Nova Scotia, especially when the banks are phoning. There are people in the institutions here, they are under that much distress and duress, it is unreal. Like the kids don’t have rubber boots to go to school with in the winter time. They go home, all they eat is Kraft Dinner and hot dogs. I mean do you think they deserve this? They do not deserve this and hopefully, gentlemen, that you people, actually I am begging here today on behalf of the injured workers of Cape Breton and of Nova Scotia, that you do something to help the injured workers. This is our last shot and our last hope, is you people. “…
http://www.ontla.on.ca/…/…/committee_transcripts_details.do…
Legislative Assembly of Ontario:
“The Canada pension plan was never meant to be a disability system, but injured workers apply for CPP disability because they have a three- or four-year wait before they can get an adverse decision overturned. Other agencies now have to bear the costs—taxpayers bear the costs—of these workplace injuries instead of having the employers, who are supposed to be paying these costs, paying them. So the taxpayers pay them.”
http://www.ontla.on.ca/…/…/committee_transcripts_details.do…
Some Permanently Injured and Disabled Workers do not appy for a Disability Pension as they are under the False Pretence by the WCB/WSIB that they will receive Workers Compensation Benefits- when after years of Appeals they are Denied these Just Benefits and the time has expired to apply for Canada Disability Pensions.
Colin Fraser has said the Provincial Governments and Federal Governments should work together- However; that was not his response to me during his On Air Interview. Colin Fraser, had shifted it to the Provincial Governments Responsibility. Yet; it was the Federal Government whom created WCB/WSIB and called it a “Seperate Entity”.
The Federal Government had given WCB/WSIB “Exclusive Jurisdiction”, which means, In civil procedure, exclusive jurisdiction exists where one court has the power to adjudicate a case to the exclusion of all other courts. It is the opposite situation from concurrent jurisdiction (or non exclusive jurisdiction), in which more than one court may take jurisdiction over the case.
The Federal Government, has let the Provinces Change the Legislation Dramatically to benefit Employers, Government, Lawyers, and Least of all the Injured Workers!
These Issues have been discussed/debated and many studies have shown that the Injured Workers are not treated fairly!
http://nslegislature.ca/…/co…/committee_hansard/C18/wc980901
As was said in “The Meredith Report”:
“In these days of social and industrial unrest it is, in my judgment, of the gravest importance to the community that every proved injustice to any section or class resulting from bad or unfair laws should be promptly removed by the enactment of remedial legislation and I do not doubt that the country whose Legislature is quick to discern and prompt to remove injustice will enjoy, and that deservedly, the blessing of industrial peace and freedom from social unrest. Half measures which mitigate but do not remove injustice are, in my judgment, to be avoided. That the existing law inflicts injustice on the workingman is admitted by all. From that injustice he has long suffered, and it would, in my judgment, be the gravest mistake if questions as to the scope and character of the proposed remedial legislation were to be determined, not by a consideration of what is just to the workingman, but of what is the least he can be put off with; or if the Legislature were to be deterred from passing a law designed to do full justice owing to groundless fears that disaster to the industries of the Province would follow from the enactment of it. ”
All of which is respectfully submitted. W.R. MEREDITH, Commissioner.
Dated at Osgoode Hall, Toronto, the 31st day of October, 1913.
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search…
ACCOUNTABILITY And FAIRNESS should be ADDRESSED at the TOP- Would you not agree?
https://www.gopetition.com/petition/19942.html
https://www.facebook.com/groups/110338662763574/211106362686803/
I am having difficulty finding out how the rules for wsib mandatory coverage have changed. All my searches go back to 2013 rules.
I know that some owners of small businesses can now opt out…but who and how and when????
Can you help me please?
WHISTLEBLOWER
(CORRUPTION AND CRIME IN THE TRUE NORTH)
In my opinion, as an ambitious 21 years old auto technician, I immigrated to Canada with my parents and four siblings in February 2001. My father had been an English professor for 36 years and he has taught us that Canada is the best country in the world; it is rich, powerful, and modern nation. People have rights, democracy, and they value freedom of speech. But very soon, I realized that Canada is not the best country for all people and those rights and freedoms are created for only a special interest groups, rich and government bureaucrats.
WSIB (Workplace Safety Insurance Board) is a branch of Canadian workers compensation and its mandate is to collect premium from employers and compensate workers when they get injured on the job. However, this organization has become corrupt and systemically large amount of money had been stolen from the workers compensation budget by their top executives. Over time, their dishonesty has created 11.5 billion dollars deficit (Unfunded liability …p316. Para.1). To eliminate that shortage, the corrupt bureaucrats have created a secret strategy to setup permanent injured workers with plots, so they die early and WSIB does not have to pay for the workers’ injury cost.
Hence, my career was very in demand in Canada and immediately after immigration, I found a decent job. I have worked for few years in Ontario, but unfortunately my back was injured at work in May 2005. Five months later, the result of X-Ray and MRI showed a moderate disc bulging in L5-S1. The result was considered as a 15% permanent injury and the finding was confirmed by many specialists.
After one-year litigation, my advocate (lawyer) managed to have WSIB to pay for my retraining program so I can learn another career to accommodate my injury. While I was in school, I was approached by numerous secret agents who were well trained and had a lot of information about my history. They were instructed to become friends with me and manipulate me to do drugs like cocaine and other harmful substances, so I get addicted and do not survive long. When I was not deceived by their first scam, they continuously put me under psychological pressure by trying to put me in trouble with public and law.
After some research and consultation with my advocate (lawyer), I understood that the corrupt bureaucrats of WSIB setup young permanent injured workers with those plots, so they die early. This group of injured workers is being targeted because over long time, their injury cost the most. Thus, their early fatality offsets government’s large deficit. However, it is executed in very advanced and hypocrite arrangement.
Life was very difficult but luckily, I have survived and completed two business diplomas from Fanshawe College. That is why I am very thankful to my advocate, family, friends, professors, and all other individuals who have protected me from WSIB. But unfortunately, not many injured workers have the privilege of having supportive family and friends. Very easily they are being trapped and being killed.
Consequently, if a government agency uses public resource against its own law obedient citizens and no one is held accountable, then public rights has been violated and they don’t have democracy.
WSIB’s operation is considered as a government organized crime against injured workers. They are influential with 7-billion-dollar annual revenue and they have numerous departments, like human resource, marketing, finance, medical, operation, crisis management and many more. However, the department that causes harm to injured workers is executed in secret.
In addition, their special department which is called crises management is expert in cover-ups. If anyone raises their voice to make public awareness, they silence the whistleblower. Sadly, all Canadian media is fully monitored and controlled by government. There are thousands of stories like mine, but none of them is permitted to be published.
Furthermore, WSIB fabricates false stories against injured workers and advertise them nationwide such as; injured workers are being paid too well thus, the system has large deficit. Or, injured workers are faking their injury, therefore, WSIB must be cruel on them. But they have never provided any evidence or facts to prove their statements. These are false accusations and they are created for two reasons.
1. To motivate their employees to continue their inhumane conducts.
2. If injured workers complain about the system, public should not have sympathy for them.
But their intended goal is to create a negative image for injured workers and isolate them from public. WSIB gradually terminate injured workers life, simply because there is not enough fund in the budget and they are very successful.
According to the Bruser’s report, at macro level, WSIB gives large cash rewards as a form of rebate to big corporations which can hide injures (Bruser D. March 4, 2009). Early death of injured workers reduces labour cost for large corporation.
From sole economic perspective, it appears a very effectual way to reduce labour cost, because it is very easy to manipulate and kill a very vulnerable person; and it is not so difficult for a large and influential organization to hide it from public and responsible authorities.
I have reported the misconduct to the local authorities during 2008-2009; conversely, WSIB’s approach got harsher. Because workers’ life has no value in Canadian corporate monarchy.
Again in 2013, I had to reveal WSIB’s secret policy to the local media. But only one of my articles was posted on TVO for only 48 hours and then it was removed. Immediately after, WSIB warned me to not share my experience with media again, otherwise there will be a retaliation. In addition, they have created a file to represent me as a psychotic and put me under intense surveillance.
On February 2016, I had to escape to a different province, British Columbia. In my new home, I immediately found a decent job at a Toyota dealership as a product advisor. The work environment was very friendly, and I had one of the best customer services in the firm. I felt free and productive again. But soon after WSIB was informed of my new residence, the corrupt bureaucrats set-me-up with different plots; forcing me to quit my job after 7 months.
Thus, I’ve been retaliated for speaking the truth by unveiling their hidden crime against injured workers. Consequently, if a person is being punished for sharing his\her own story, then what is the meaning of the freedom of speech?
WSIB claim that their deficit reached up to 14.2 billion dollars and they reduced it by 9 billion within 7 years by making the work place safer and the number of injuries has reduced (TVO, Dec.14, 2016). But There is a different common consensus among researchers and academics in regarding to that deficit. It is argued that the 14.2 billion dollars’ deficit was inflated and false statistic, so they can use it as an excuse to cut compensation of workers to benefit large corporations. (TVO, Dec.14, 2016). Others add that government hides what caused their deficits and how they reduced it. The cause of their deficits is known due to managerial theft; mainly, creating false expense reports, nepotism, and over employment due to over paid salaries (Public sector salary disclosure 2016). It is well known that most of their agents are hired as permanent injured workers and they are paid as permanent injured workers to hide their true administration cost from federal government. But, it is very disturbing to public that they have systematically murdered thousands of permanent injured workers to eliminate their deficit.
WSIB has purposely created ambiguity and complication to the system so they can cover-up their corruptions and sacrifice more permanent injured workers as a scapegoat. They can get away with their crime because they have the power and resource such as, creating distorted and false statistics to deceive public and responsible authorities (TVO, Dec.14, 2016).
Thus, WSIB is not just corrupt, but it commits crimes. Superficially, they pretend and show to the public that they help injured workers, but in secret they are further harming them, so they die early.
However, corrupt bureaucrats cannot hide all their wrongdoings all the time. Workers are aware of the abusive system and their motivation to work hard and job satisfaction has reduced in the long term. As a result, corrupt WSIB caused to decline the quality and productivity of the workforce.
Based on my 9 years research, consultation with politicians and law makers, the attainable solution is to abolish corrupt WSIB. In capitalism, the best tool to fix government corruption is privatization. Thus, workers’ injury should be administered like our banks and auto insurance. In privatized model, workers and employers are free to choose where to purchase insurance and how much to pay. Equilibrium price and demand will be determined by market and the firm which can provides better service with fair price will succeed. The sole responsibility of the government is to supervise competing firms and collect appropriate tax.
My story and thousands more are to request investigation and research to fine the truth. Thus,
to eliminate doubt, Government should demand an independent investigation about the rate and the number of injured workers’ death after the injury during the past 10 years and compare the result with previous years.
Since our government purposely avoids doing anything to resolve this public issue, I had to travel to Turkey, Russia, Germany, and Geneva to share my information with their media and governments to shame Canadian Government for devaluing their injured workers.
In short, I am very optimistic and positive that international community will help Canadian injured workers by publicizing our concern and holding Canada and their Workers compensation bureaucrats accountable for their scam and heinous crimes against injured workers.
Truthfully,
Fahim Naseri
References:
Annual Report of the Office of the Auditor General of Ontario. (2009). Unfunded Liability of the Workplace Safety and Insurance Board. Retrieved February 25, 2018 from http://silkstart.s3.amazonaws.com/coca/Storage/30/2273_Auditor_General_Report_2009_WSIB_UFL.pdf
March 31, 2017 Public sector salary disclosure 2016: all sectors and seconded employeeshttps://www.ontario.ca/page/public-sector-salary-disclosure-2016-all-sectors-and-seconded-employees
Paikin.S. (Dec.14,2016) TVO. Retrieve from https://tvo.org/video/programs/the-agenda-with-steve-paikin/wsib-working-for-injured-workers
Bruser,D. (March 4,2009) The Star, Retrieved from
https://www.thestar.com/news/investigations/2009/03/04/audit_slams_ontario_workplace_safety_rebates.html