Steve Payne
Compulsory certification of the carpentry industry will cripple the construction industry in Ontario
Canadian ContractorCarpenters and renovators have, for the first couple of years of the Ontario College of Trades' existence, been given the choice whether they wanted to pay OCOT's fees or not. That could be over soon.
The Ontario College of Trades (OCOT) is now looking at designating carpentry – which by a strict definition includes all renovators in the province – as a “compulsory” trade.
If this goes through, all carpenters will legally have to join the College and pay its annual fees. The Ontario College of Trades trains no workers and teaches no courses. Fees are paid simply to appear “in good standing” on the OCOT’s publicly-searchable website.
A report in the Toronto Sun (here) quotes Tyler Charlebois, a spokesperson for OCOT, as confirmed that a motion was passed by the OCOT on Feb. 20 seeking a trade classification review for “general carpentry.”
Here is the Ontario government’s official definition of a general carpenter…
1. Establishing building procedures
2. Preparing a work site for building
3. Laying out, constructing and installing form work
4. Framing floors, walls, ceilings and roofs
5. Installing interior and esterior finihsing materials and hardware
6. Constructing heavy framing using post and beam and timber construction
7. Building stairs, newel posts, handrails and ballustrades
8. Laying out, constructing and installing door and window systems including hardware
9. Performing renovations. O. Reg 275/11, s.15.
The Toronto Sun story quotes Progressive Conservative MPP Garfield Dunlop, a licensed plumber and outspoken critic of the OCOT, as follows:
“This is so absolutely insane. I don’t know how any government could possibly allow this to happen. Compulsory certification of the carpentry industry will cripple the construction industry in Ontaro.”
Certificates of qualification in carpentry have not been historically required in Ontario to do most carpentry work, and very few renovators have C of Q’s in carpentry. But if the OCOT makes this category of trade “compulsory,” the carpenters and renovators will need to become certified or, under the Ontario College of Trades Act, be working illegally.
Dunlop suggested, according to the Toronto Sun article, that the province will allow compulsory certification of carpenters to go through as a thank-you for union support.
The OCOT is slowly wending its way through almost all “trades” in the province, making them “compulsory” members of its organization. It has so far mandated that 22 of 156 trades join up.
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This sounds like another idiotic move and money grab by our ever so greedy provincial government. It will simply force many more contractors into the underground or retirement. This must be stopped!
As the WSIB has already mandated that anyone operating as a handyman is considered to be construction related and requires its coverage, this latest money grab will of course extend to my profession as well.
I’m sure that “5. Installing interior and exterior finishing materials and hardware” and “9. Performing renovations. O. Reg 275/11, s.15.” will be what they will blanket it under.
If it goes through, I can safely say that the Ontario Government will have put me into another of its programs that start with a W…….Welfare.
This insanity has to stop. Who’s going to pay the taxes to pay for the salaries of these overfed bureaucrats when we all go out of business?
I have been a licesed carpenter for several years. It is about time it will be recognized along side other manditory trades in this industry. Whether or not this is a money grab by the government; finally maybe this industry can have a more professional stance. The OCOT needs to put the dues to work and follow through. If those in the industry who are not licensed, go right the C of Q before its mandated.
If the undergorund economy picks up, then the insurance companies need to step in and not cover work completed with a licensed trade. Carpenters who are legitemate and doing everything by the book need to step up and report these ladder and truck guys. At the end of the day, if you know what you are doing, than get your ticket, done.
I agree totally, I too am a licensed carpenter and we need respect restored to our trades. If you have been working as a carpenter and not licensed go write the 5 exams like we licensed carpenters did and get your C of Q.
Yes and in order to get your license you should have to build a log home as well. Too many licensed carpenters skate through without ever building one.
Congratulations Mr. Klomp, for making such valid points. Excellent article.
well said bryan, I too hold my red seal…and have been waiting for at least 10 years for the designation of a “compulsory trade” in carpentry. I love how every body and there sister can currently call themselves a carpenter. Way to many hacks out there who don’t know code, who don’t have the knowledge. i spent 7200 hours completing my apprenticeship and then completed my seal.
if and when they make it a compulsory licences trade, you will have the option through OCOT of being grandfathered in with your hours…and you may immediately go write your test. no waiting…no apprenticeship. there should be zero complaining here.
Sorry, I meant the insurance companies should not cover work completed without a licensed trade.
I think that before your ego gets the better of you, you should check out another article in this edition. It starts “As an IT contractor now,……….”
Well Jim, I think you missed the point, ego really plays no part. (And yes I did read the IT article; I very much agree).
To clarify, as we “professional contractors” are constantaly being slammed with more and more government changes to our industry. This would be one more kick in the pants. I know and have learned from many in the trade who had not had their ticket, some of the best in my books, experience is everything. Having said that, like WSIB, we won’t be able to get around this change in policy yet again, so why not challenge the exam while you still can. I know some guys who have and have been successful. My hope is that all good contractors in this industry can make the transition. I have even told my partner (who does not have his ticket) that if an apprenticeship is required, I will vouch for his hours and push him through. I can’t afford to loose him.
For the record I never joined the carpenters union, nor do I have any intention in doing so. I am not a member of the OCOT, as it is not manditory yet, and I don’t intend in doing so. I, like many others, am getting tired of this political, non-democratic “BS”.
Back somewhere, in a faraway land, long ago, if you were caught stealing a loaf of bread, in some extreme instances you had your hands dismembered from your wrists. Time past and civilizations were more lenient in their punishment.
Then in 2014, in one of the most industrious and forward-thinking democracies, a law was passed whereby you were fined for having a hammer or saw in your hand, if you were not able to produce a license, indicating that you were a member in good standing with all current dues paid up. Protecting the populace from those tradesmen that might not be able to pound a nail straight and in the right location, was the forward thinking by the governing body of the day. This began an exodus “en masse” of the hard -working underclass as they toiled below ground to avoid the evil eye of “Big Bother”! Inspectors roved the land in their government issued 4-wheel drive pickup trucks, posing as workers in the field. Eventually, over time, as the drug laws were repealed, the drug traffikers and dope smokers were set free from the prisons, to make way for the lowly husbands and brothers who dared to build sheds and decks without bearing a mandatory carpenters license.
FLASH: April1, 2019. Today, the father of 3 who practised carpentry without being a member of the government sanctioned Carpenters Club, had his hands chopped off for his third offence, as he was caught erecting a stud wall in his neighbour’s basement. In a related story, the neighbour’s son, a carpentry inspector, was promoted to Regional Ratfink for his fine service to the community in helping keep society safe from shoddy workmen.
It is very interesting how the government and is tentacles work these days. On one hand they created OCOT so that no one does a poor quality trades work. Everyone must be tested, certified, pay the government to be part of the OCOT. The purpose of all these? Apparently, to ensure that the quality of the work is safe and sound, and followed proper construction procedures. It all sounds very nice and noble.
The irony is, In the Ontario Building Code 2012, they took out the requirements of designing a building by an Engineer or an Architect who had to go to school to learn the sophisticated engineering and architectural skills to design complex buildings. In their public notice that they sent out this week, it reads:
“Code users should note that the 2012 Building Code (Ontario Regulation 332/12) no longer includes provisions regarding professional design of buildings by an architect or professional engineer that were previously set out in Division C, Section 1.2. of the 2006 Building Code (O. Reg. 350/06).”
Which means, now any BCIN holder, who are required only to learn and pass the Building Code exams, can design a very complex high-rise building without a proper knowledge or Engineering or Architecture or any background in those areas. Very interesting when you think about what the government considers as the standards of public safety it likes to practice.
The new requirement does not say that an engineer or architect is not required, but rather that the code has no jurisdiction on the self-regulating professions. This was the same case back a few years ago that required BCINs for architects an engineers.
Maybe some regulation and certification would be a good thing. The email you refer to explicitly answers your question whether any one can design a high rise building. You needed to read a little bit further.
I think this is common in the trades where we think we know the code and how to build because we’ve put in our time. I can’t believe how many times I’ve been told by an ‘expert carpenter or seasoned renovator’ that the code approved or engineered solution is wrong, when they lack the basic fundamentals.
If you want a good example of this look at the cover of this month’s fine homebuilding and the framing in the cover photo. If you can’t see a problem with it, go do some research on shrinkage, thermal bridging and air sealing.
I was against regulation, but the more I see how well electricians do with their licensing, I’m beginning to change my mind. If we all justifiably raised our prices in reflection of our qualifications, we might have a better chance. There should at least be a basic requirement of knowing the code.
Actually, to add, the ruling does not actually say that one has to be even a BCIN holder. Even a homeowner, who may not have any background even closely anything to a construction, can design his home, or for that matter a multi-story building, and the City has to technically accept that for review and approval, as the Code does not restrict the home owner from doing so.
just a quick question
where in ontario do you have such lieneancy If we submit a set of plans to the municipality it has to be completely approved before we can start to build . All the lintels , size of beams floor joists rafters whether stick or trusses , smoke alarms, what heat source, if a chimney is to be installed, interior/ exterior finishing etc.etc. all on the plans so it can be approved to code .
then several inspections as building progresses before moving to the next step of the building.
no wonder why there are shoddy jobs performed you should look into whats wrong with your inspectors
I don’t understand what everybody is getting so excited about the government or whoever can charge whatever they want it doesn’t cost me a dime. I went into business 30 years ago to make money not spend money so I let the customers pay for everything. Hope this helps some of you to make some money.
Constitution Chaos, the Liberals swore under oath to became salesman who knew it? The Ontario college of Tyranny unlawful status, now is the tool for money making machine for the liberals, who knew it?
Toilet paper with some faces on it should do the trick, sold all over the public washrooms. Maybe some people will have a lot of pleasure cleaning when the sun does not shine.
I am fully supportive of any action by our government that supports legitimate tax paying trades. We need to clean up the construction industry. I for one am tired of competing with fireman and layed off factory employees that pick up a hammer and call themselves carpenters and renovators. They are at best handyman. And my firm belief is that if you work for cash you are not a man you are just handy. Shoulder the responsibility that is ours as Canadians and pay your taxes. Cash work is ruing the entire industry, licensing will make it a bit harder for people to get into the industry which is good a thing. Lazy people will never make good carpenters anyways. And lets face it carpentry has come a long way we are doing things in carpentry that people 50 years ago could never dream off. Engineered wood products, new engineering practices allowing for wood frame buildings up to 6 stories in some provinces. Do you really want to be in a building that is 6 stories tall erected by uncertified and unlicensed trades? My question is this: Who cares that the plumber has to be licensed if the building the plumbing is installed into is built by unlicensed trades? Once the building is laying flat on the ground I will guarantee you that the plumbing will leak… I am a red seal carpenter and have been since my 23rd birthday 11 years ago. I signed up to challenge the exam on a Wednesday afternoon, walked and passed. Since that day 2 others of my employees have challenged the test and passed as well, in addition to that we have had numerous apprentices complete the exam. I am not saying that to be arrogant, but to encourage the skilled unlicensed trade people to right the test, is not a really hard test… if you can’t pass the test….. perhaps a box store is hiring 🙂 Please do not continue to be a general carpenter.
I challenged all Carpenters and renovators – Stop complaining and lets support anything that brings more reputability to the industry, i know it will cost more in fees but if we can keep the untrained people/ unskilled people out of the industry then we will have a much better chance of completing for projects on a level playing field which will mean more money in our pockets AND the pockets of our employees.
Sorry for the long rant…
Carpentry is a great trade – take pride in the work you do and be proud of our achievements in the industry.
Ken,
Your point is valid , Carpentry is a great trade and separating the boys from the men so to say ,is not a bad thing.
However, I really don’t think the cash “contractors” are the ones upset about all these new taxes, in reality that’s what they are. They don’t pay any taxes and don’t carry any insurance ,so what do they care.
The ones complaining are the registered , insured and above board, men and women who ply their trades legally and in the open , who warranty their work and try to make an honest living. These are the ones who are an easy target for this provincial government to reach into their pockets and take that much more.
This Ontario provincial government has a proven track record of horrible mismanagement, it’s been noted in a few comments on this site that the WSIB when presented with obvious evidence of fraud, looks the other way. The private insurers don’t operate that way, they investigate and prosecute. The college of trades was designed to promote the trades, and has become another way of taxing people. After all ,they don’t train any workers and teach any courses, so what are they? They are not supporting us, they are blowing smoke up our asses.
Personally I don’t trust this current provincial government to do anything except tax me to death, I want the right to choose my own insurer, don’t you. Would you want them to be the ones insuring your home or car? The cash carpenters will never get a license or insurance, so who are we really beating up here?
If the firemen for example paid taxes on their side jobs, they’d be in such a high tax bracket that it wouldn’t be worth it for them.
Let’s let them get their shit together with the WSIB before we give them anything else to try and manage regarding the trades. Let them at least pretend to give a shit about my money, then maybe I’ll let them have some more of it.
http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/ccr/background.pdf
Check this link
For those are covered under the TQAA 1990. Certification of qualification.
Keep getting eluded on the OCOT, There are no benefits whatsoever, they want your hard money for them selves nothing more. If honorable MPP Garfield Dunlop private bill will fail we will se very soon the Oligargs Corruption of Traitors exposed for what they are.
I have been in the construction industry for 41 years and self employed for 31years.
its kind of sad to think that a piece of paper makes you superior to those that don’t have it.contractors that have got permits submit plans to the bi-law office for approval, and then build the project. when you do everything by the book and then you are classed as a fly by night contractor because you don’t have the almighty paper . That only the chosen need or get is just another way of stating that all of the llld timers don’t know anything. open your eyes and look around there are houses out there that are over 10 years old that were built by men that know the trade that didn’t have a License . how is it going to make a more honest and or better houses out there. it all boils down to the individual doing the job , because you have the all important piece of paper are you going to put that extra effort into it or are you going to hurry it along so you can make that bit more money .Just in case you don’t know the money always wins , no matter what you say . So the piece of paper that says you are superior than all the rest of us is just your ego talking.
Licensed carpenters should receive the respect and pay they deserve. Anyone can say they are carpenters and get paid $17.00 an hour. That is pathetic. Have you looked at ads for carpenters recently. They are being offered $17-$21 an hour. This is what a handyman should receive, not a licensed carpenter. But people would rather pay the $17 an hour than hire a licensed journeyman carpenter and pay them a descent wage
You get what you pay for
http://www.opseu.org/ops/ministry/mtcu/submission-on-bill-183.htm
In here right to the rote to whom start all this mess
Dave, you are right, this Liberal government is despicable. It isn’t the paper which perform work, its the human being. The aptitude to learn, the oneself worded, safely self oriented, and awareness.
However there are responsibilities in all trades either compulsory and voluntary.
If anyone is dishonest either certified or not in pricing, job preforming quality, unkind for their costumers will have a short leave. it maters not if he/she have the OCOT membershit go it. I had electricians working for me before, long ago which fail the CQ for berries of language but their work war remark able good.
Were let ago because this messy ESA/ECRA and now another shit OCOT.
Later I to close down the business, to much to support a lot of people wish to get big money, but unwilling to work. The OCOT have no respect for trades people either certified or not. The market will sort this out very soon.
Keep your eyes open for those so called OCOT goons.
There is one thing that gets me too going. Talk that sets the CQ as a person of knowledge and perfection, without it you are a nothing. There are a lot of great contractors without a CQ. Just a little information for those who don’t know: If you want to build anything of any size you get a permit before you dig the ground .then the MUNICIPALITY gives you the go ahead. after submitting the plans that the MUNICIPALITY approved. then after several inspections you get to finish off the project .In most cases any JOB of any size is noticed by a nosey neighbour and reported to the MUNICIPALITY. I am pretty sure that all MUNICIPALITIES must be the same. As far as me getting a CQ my take on it is screw it i have been paying my taxes wsib and cpp and uic . I will just be a casualty of our useless government.As far as fireman or trades person working in the trade maybe you should open your eyes there are also employes with a CQ working for friends and for CASH if you don’t believe it follow your employees around on the weekends . I had one employee that was talking to the owners of my job and steeling my drywall job . and for cash . He was LIscened . You will never stop the underground economy , this sort of step will increase it. When the price on labour sky rockets you will then see the result of this, job loss as not every one is rich ,there are a lot of seniors on a fixed income that cannot afford to pay for higher rates . The cost of everything is going up the most important things will matter first, then repairing their home will be last on the list. Competition is what we need to keep prices affordable and INSPECTORS to do their job.even electricians should have every job INSPECTED not be told which one safety authority will look at, as i have closed up some walls that were pretty rough. but the electrician doesn’t have to be inspected. IT would be interesting to just see if he actually got a permit for the job.
Well last time I looked Mr Kromp I haven’t seen any houses falling down or skyscrapers falling over. The one thing I do know with 30 years in, like Dave said, a piece of paper makes you a better trades person. I call your bs and raise it ten. First of all anything the government touches goes to hell. Good for you Mr Holmes that you have your papers. I’ve seen people from all over Canada come with their fancy papers and when I fired them from my sites, I found the same old principals with these guys. Whoever taught them, (the government) taught them how to be lazy. In fact a guy with papers are taught how to fill out unemployment forms. More government = unemployment and a worse situation then started. No Mr Kromp you can take your papers and shove them where the sun don’t shine. The guys are doing just fine. We learn from professionals here. Not some politicians nephew or son who knows nothing about our industry.
Another thing about underground, do you think for a minute a homeowner care in the least if a guy is certified or not. They hire with only one .thing in mind. How much. So are you worth more because you have papers, do you pay WSIB on time or are you a troll who works by the hour and doesn’t know
anything about putting your balls on the table and putting a good crew together or are you just sucking wind because you have a sheet of paper. I,ll tell you what, I will be the guy without the sheet of paper and underbid you by twenty percent. Then let’s see who gets the job…..no Mr Kromp I think our sector is doing just fine and saying your better then someone without papers is a joke. After what you wrote, you better learn how to write up unemployment papers.
Well Mark I guess ignorance is bliss. If you fully read my posts, you’d see that I said experience was everything and not once did I say that someone with papers was better than the next. Before you start beaking off, maybe fully understand the underlying discussion. Good for you if you choose to be the company or person who flies under the radar and gets by without paying wsib, taxes, and whatever else you choose not to pay for. Good Luck. Also, “Kromp” is not even correct.
right on Mark
i don’t think any one has thought about the material suppliers in this case .
If you put a lot of good contractors out of business, are the paper huggers going to all of a sudden be able to do more work and make up the short fall at the lumber yards . how are they going to keep employees on. Business will drop and they will struggle to keep going= shut down. in small town we get people from the cities who don’t have much work doing work then in the winter they leave , and are no where to be found if there is a problem. Should we block the highways and put them in front of a firing squad because there taking work from the locals . The last time i looked it was a free country , not communist . we are working that way soon we will be told what trade were suited for . I wonder if there is a trade for arseholes we seem to have a overwhelming amount of them in ontario .
Hi guys, you mean, ”asshole trades” yeah, there are located at bay street Toronto
called O ligachs C orrupted O dour T raitors ( OCOT) and wages varies from 70k to 180k not bad to f,,,, the real trades people.
The notion of certified became over bearing, was turned into a money pit, a club for grabs. Certified electricians with experience from 10 years to 30, 40 and so on need another piece of paper from the ESA/ECRA to perform their work, but for any reason, looses certification, on the mercy of the OCOT will not be allowed to do work. So what is the ECRA paper for? Now the CEO of OCOT, a gaming lawyer will tell us how to do our jobs, isn’t this interesting?, when he seats on many board at the same time and collecting from them all. Can we all do the same?
Another money pit to suck trades people.
When politicians let them selves be fooled by lobbyists, that’s what happen, its very clear for all to see. One day work stoppage province wide, or more, may do the trick. By April 8 this year, if MPP Garfield Dunlop private bill fails
around 85 000 apprentices would not be able to work. they became unlicensed.
That alone will surpass 50 million economic lost per week, just in wages. Toward
services and production is unknown at this moment, Is this what we all want?
I believe the opportunity will arise very soon to abolish this OCOT and others to.
Good luck guys take care
yes and there are a lot more names they can be called i’m sure.
I may be wrong in my thinking but isn’t the reason you go to school to get a certificate is so you can bypass the lowest labour job . just a fast move up the ladder so your employer will pay you a lot more money that the real experienced carpenter who has been there for several years.
What will happen to the joe boy that does all your crap jobs that get passed to him , because the high paid man doesn’t want to get his hands dirty. will he have to get a certificated to clean up the job site , or pass up a board or hold a board while the pro puts a nail in it .
How about the teachers at the trades schools , were they born with a certificate no they worked for a real carpenter who learned from another before him. I don’t have a problem taking the scab carpenters off the page, but come on stupid is what stupid does. This is all a money grab so it can be spent on more stupid government created jobs to catch the honest people forced to join the underground economy. Maybe what we really need is a non biased organization to inspect electrical plumbing and carpentry that way the bad contractors can have their name published in newspapers , and on the web not to use . that may get a better quality of work.
it could also remove some of the certified carpenters that are just money hungry to.
You know Dave, make sure you and others don’t get to close to the snow man, changes are: He will start to melt down.
If you get into meetings among yourselves, code a place, hour, and day, make sure all cell phones have batteries out even before get to drive, Look for any infiltration, we already kicked two suspects spies out, our meetings.
Cell phones can be tracked. Make sure no violence takes any shape and form.
Make sure you and others around you know the inner circle, trust is a must.
In uncertain times spies can sale their own mothers for pennies on the dollar.
Use small news info sheets on this subject on your work place to inform others and ask them to pass on. The underground communication is the best to get positive results and free from censure ship.
http://www.garfielddunlopmpp.com/news/dec-19-2012.html
Do you really want to read this?
HI Alec, Two large community clubs were contacted, and guess what:
About 98% of those where there of a group at one club were on the dark.
I mean a lot of different trades are not informed, what is going on?.
Your Info were given to those wanted, and surprise,,,,,,,, people were very receptive. Another club I had a meeting with the desk people, cazzo cazzo mama mia, you know, were not a aware either.
Now I a m trying to get the presidents of these large community clubs if they want like, a large reception on this issues, maybe you or Rob Koci may have to address the meeting, on further notice.
All the info were given, including the MPPs Randy and Garfield, and they were told about the phone conference too. I notice people are in the state of awe.
A good way to make payments to the OCOT if one wish to pay at all, for those on the compulsory trades now. There is people with brilliant ideas everywhere.
Here
Do not sign their document, keep it, don’t sent to them at all.
To whom this concern, OCOT
As we all know this pass winter was very bad, and still, and I am in financial stress.
My priorities are:
a) Provide financial security status for me and my family, That’s my legal obligation.
b) My founds are short, and I am having difficulty make ends meat.
b) I am working beyond the point of my own safety and health protection,
working to many hours, to support the many unwanted burden taxation in all shapes and forms, plus unnecessary fees and memberships, unwanted plutocracies; so called democratic rule of law.
d) As I am trying to protect my image, my business, my family, my credit, and so on: would like to make some payment, to contribute to your unwanted idiologies. without any benefit, toward my career.
(Option one, $ 6.66, option two, $9.99, temporay only ,
Option three from $40.00 to $60.00 or less ( on $120) ( Check) as your college cash it, a full payment, will be deemed accepted in full agreement and license or membership without delay. I will fill your unwanted membership when your confirmation of acceptance is meet.
So here is a check on the total, $6.66 dollars, per monthly bases, but nothing will warranty the next payment, because if your college deemed my certificate illegal I not be able to work.
So accepting this payment means an active (temporary) agreement, and I will be able to work and support me, my family and trying to control my hard financial shape. Please sent to me by mail the accepted agreement in writing.
if this proposals aren’t accepted, by your college, I will not be able provide and support me, my family, all the expenses I do have and obligation agreements, as house mortgage, utility bills, transport, food, cloths, property tax, medical bills, and others etc.
If I lose my job my financial hard ship, will turn into hell, and recourses are: legal action will be taken, for imposing and forcing payments which I can not afford in exchange of decertified my career of chose.
If your college, choose not to agree, and want a full payment, will be seen a breach of laws under the affordable means. I remind your college, Canada have
a lot of NFPO on the third world countries to prevent abusive ways of imposing tyrannical systems with no means of their own existence, to prevent abuse.
So your college by not excepting afford able means of payment will be consider unlawfull. And further more was founded on these bases..
Sincerely
Date:
After the second later of notice, there is 60 days to send payment, for those wish to pay them.
good luck to all
I am all for the Q of C for carpentry being compulsory. The market has had it bottom fallout with all these backyard handy mans. The work is crap, the pay is crap and the safety violations are huge. Making it licensed industry will clean up the market, raise the standards of workmanship and the people who dedicated their lives to carpentry and went to school, studied and invested their hard earned dollars can make a decent living.
The amount of education for a real carpenter is huge. You have 6 months, of school 5400 on job training, for the basics license. Then there is years more of school if you want to progress on into Flooring, scaffolding, foreman training, Health and Safety Training and it goes on and on.
You have these companies that are demanding experience with own tools wanting to pay $15 a hour. Or consumers not wanting to pay more than $25 a hour. When I had my business before closing it after 8 years. My overhead was $25,000 a year Just to keep myself working. That is $12.50 a hour right there. You need to pull in $100K Minimum to make ends meet, That’s $50 a hour right there.
Consumer doesn’t want to pay, Legit business is to much. So what happens? Boom big underground market and us legitimate carpenters go out of business. So yeah I Joined the Union!! and Bring on the Red Tape. Lets close this underground market right up and drive them out of business then that way consumers can get high quality work, and Red Seal Carpenters can make a living too.
Yeah, dreaming is a good thing, but reality is what we all face day by day, I am certified for 35 years in electrical diversities, like me so many others, and a lot of us took seven years apprentice ship program without failing.
Not six month, how much would you be able to pay for an hour of electrical service based on your ideas, $75, 85,100, 125 or even more. Would be nice for us too, but reality isn’t what we perceive.
The trade demand and market volume is what controls payments or wages. The more government regulates in areas which they do more harm then good, always became a mess.
Oleber: Electical is 8250 hours including the in school That is 4 years not 7 years. Its the same as carpenters apprenticeship, minus 1000 hours.
I would be as bold to say carpenters is even longer if you want to go to higher levels of education, layout, formwork, scaffold, foreman, superintendent, and that’s just the big ICI stuff, haven’t talked about stair building and all the other stuff you need to know.
Bickering aside, how about some barebone numbers. Since the 1980’s due to government regulations work injuries has been in steady decline.
I just went to the HRSDC website and grabbed the 2012 average income of male workers. Gross of $988 weekly that plus assuming my $25,000 overhead is correct equals $76,376 per year or $38.18 per hour for self employed carpenter.
At $38.18 per hour you still earn less than the average Canadian male. Because we still have the extra administrative hours we need to put in to run the business beyond the regular 40 hour work week.
To truly be equal with the average male worker in Canada we would need to charge in the $40’s minimum per hour; even then it assumes we work every week, with no time off, or down time.
Since we know we are not working everyday year around, we need to compensate with higher wages to compete with our average male worker wage of gross $988 weekly. What do you pick? $50?$60? $75 per hour?
Those are the rates to make ends meet, Then the underground handy man says well hmm I’ll do the work for $20 a hour cash. How do us legitimate carpenters compete? We can’t.
So yeah I say. Bring down the Carpentry compulsory trade hammer and kick all these illegal workers out. The consumer wont like it. But why should I go to the food bank so someone can have a job illegally?
Everybody is dancing around the real issue; quality of workmanship. This is the reason why certification is given, and why apprenticeships are done in the first place. These things are in place to protect the consumer….BUT….. forcing certification onto a tradesperson in order to legally work in the country/province is wrong, plain and simple… both apprenticeships and certification should NOT be mandatory. They are both indications of your working knowledge of a trade… but only indicators…. you should not require 7500hrs of work in order to write a test…. pay your money and write the test. if you pass, great, you are certified. if you don’t pass, you need to learn more, so either study, or work as an apprentice some more before you challenge the test again. Lack of certification should not ban you from working. It should help protect you from legal action, and your dues should get you a ‘malpractice’ insurance policy for your trade. This way, if you are not certified and do work for someone that is not to standards, you can be sued to recover monies paid for the job. The consumer can then decide…. if a door hinge needs replacing, that job should pay $10/hr, it requires minimal skills…if a certified carpenter will do it for $10/hr, great, if not, just hire a handy man….the worst he can do is mess up a $15 hinge, and it’s not worth suing over… but if your building a house, you need a highly skilled carpenter and you want to know that the carpenter is covered by insurance, so if anything goes wrong, you are covered….. consumers want the choice, the market will push small jobs towards handy man types, and bigger more expensive projects toward certified carpenters…. and best of all, dues will actually do something to help certified trades persons, in the form of trade insurance…..
I am not saying you were wrong, it be nice for all of us have at least a reasonable and stable way of trades wage. Its very hard to maintain business today, I too closed my electrical business couple years ago, to many leaches on our hard money.
If you have a family or not, C of Q license, trades, yeah I agree with you on that $40 to 55 in construction, depending the dangers involved, regardless what trade, and over time same tax bracket, flat.
As per me and others came from Europe, depending what country, I for example, had five year electrical apprenticeship there, and 10 experience there too, then when arrived here, I went another two year exchange, 5000 hour work, and college, and C of Q exam and paid a stamp every 3 years, there is for life.
I worked many hours over time, to fill the 5k asap. Now after 35 years in this carers do I and others really need this OCOT to tell us how to do our jobs?
I worked beside you guys in construction apartment buildings high rise, also commercial too. I know what you are saying, I also deed a lot of costumers electrical homes, high end,,,and so I saw solo carpenters at work.
Its not been paid well as it should. The OCOT isn’t there to force a decent wage pay for the trades, or regulated on that matter, nor to protect the under ground economy, its a fact; they are there to collet on us and under the guise of customers protection.
Why should the compulsory trades pay for this mess? But wait, the OCOT apparently in a deep hole, called debt, that’s why they want everyone on board now.
Here is a nice poem
your mind is a garden
your thoughts are the seeds
you can grow flowers
or you can grow weeds
I choose long ago what to grow in my garden.
That part I 100% agree with. Why should the trades who are registered as journeymen or apprentice’s pay for the College of trades. I too closed my business due to being unable to compete with leaches and cheats. I had to get out of the private market all together and jumped over to the ICI end of it where I am now safe from it.
I too have worked with electricians up in the high rises. I get it. I know what you do. I understand the feeling of not being told what to do. I agree you earned your stay. What I am getting at is the Carpentry end of it.
Needs the college of trades. The market is a disaster and there are people doing things that are just out right dangerous and it needs to be cleaned up. I am in favour of the OCOT hopefully accomplishing this.
I personally had some dealings with a company last year in a high rise doing some residential work. Out of about 15 workers.
Not one had first aid, WHMIS, fall protection. None of these guys even had the basics. I am very happy they cannot get into the structural side of the trade.
Imagine walking on scaffolding on the side of a bridge with one of these “untrained carpenters” while it won’t happen due to the way the industry works. You still hear of the home handy man fall off roof regularly in the news. Money aside. OCOT “should” clean this up with carpentry going compulsory. That’s why it gets my vote and preferably not my money 🙂
i have been in the trade for a total of 41 years and on my own for 31 yrs. My business was all legal so I don’t have a certificate from a school, so what right do you have to call me and a lot of other good carpenters that have been there long before you.how can you call everyone else LEACHES and CHEATS. There is no way all wages will be equal across the board there will be some contractors that have no work and will price it low to be able to keep there men working ,I have seen this in the early 90s. as far as safety take a drive around and watch roofers ya they have there ropes and harness on but look there not hooked up i guess they weren’t there the day that was taught. accidents can happen to all of us . its when you take the short cuts and a fall license won’t protect you from that . The trade is a good one but not when you have idiots managing it .when electrical work could only be done by electrician the prices went through the roof . now you get home owners buying do it yourself books (theres no law against that though)You will never stop the underground market why make it worse.
This has nothing to do with how long you have been in or if you are licensed. I am advocating that making the trade compulsory will clean up the illegal market. Congratulations to you for working legally and making ends meet. I have no axe to grind on that front.
Two reasons compulsory will work. It already worked for the electricians and we are potentially heading down the same path. Two I fail to see how the carpentry market could get any worse in terms of quality jobs, safety violations and workmanship.
Yeah look at the major construction sites where there is heavy investment by the employer all the roofers have their safety harness’s on and tied off. The John Doe roofer driving up the street rarely has their safety harnesses on.
I am advocating this stuff needs enforcement and it is my belief making carpentry compulsory will do that. Sure prices will go through the roof. Sucks for the consumer to bad. As I said before why should I go to the food bank so someone else can undercut the market. Don’t like it? Then don’t renovate.
Yes electrician prices went through the roof with regulation. But you know what. A high percentage of electrical business owners are now successful and worker, property, damage, injury and death is now half what it was in the 90’s.
There will always be some illegal work. There is still some illegal electrical work today. It will shrink just like poor electrical work declined after it went through it’s changes with regulations being slapped on it.
Myself i don’t think it will clean up the trade to much . it will only give the government a bigger cash cow. I think your going to see more do it yourselfers and there buddys fix things up so the owner can get by without really fixing the problem. as far as the electrical and plumbing if the under grounders are doing these jobs now they would deffinately not get a permit if they wanted to. so these jobs are still happening it is more secretive than before. when the govt. gets involved its all solved by charging a fee or a fine. If you follow all the bull shit rules you would never getb a days work done .
Not saying there isn’t safety violations over looked but if you don’t have comp on you can’t collect if you need it anyway . so its your own loss , why not leave it affordable by getting private insurance.
there are a lot of good trades people out there with and without there license and there are a lot of butchers to. I have worked behind both fixing mistakes , quality won’t get any better just a lot more expensive to fix. There are a lot of seniors trying to hold on to there homes until they have no choice but to move.Put yourself on the old age pension and then look at their estimate for the job unless the roof is caving in most likely it will get put on hold indefinitely . There won’t be much good come out of it .
Follow what bullshit rules? A safety fence around a site so people don’t get hurt? A fall harness so you don’t get killed? WHMIS so don’t burn your hand off with a chemical. The rules are pretty basic. Summing it up in one sentence. “would be aware of your environment.”
Give the government a bigger cash cow? Come on. We all know they can step in anytime they want and jack up the taxes on income, gas and other things if they want to pad their pockets 80 thousand or so apprentice and journeyman in ontario at say a average of $80 each is $6.4 million.
Now subtract out wages, office space, enforcement personal. It’s just enough to Keep the organization running. People said the same thing about the Vehicle emission test.
In 15 years or so the government made $19million profit. It’s a little over a million a year then how many millions of cars get tested each year. Means the government priced it within pennies on the old $35 cost. Now they are giving the $19 million back with lower E-test costs. So Zero profit, Ergo no cash cow. We would of paid for it anyway. At point of sale or in taxes.
Is it wrong we have to pay for the college of trades? Sure it is. It is actually the fault of the illegitimate people working in the trades. Not yours, not mine, not the government. The same reason why it is wrong I have to do a E-test. I have always keep a good muffler, new spark plugs, air filter, oil changes on my car. My car runs well. I still have to pay. Why? Because of the other guy who decided to let his catalytic converter rust and fall off his car and pollute the air.
A lot of good came out of the E-test in conjunction with lowering industrial emissions. Early 2000’s in summer you couldn’t see more than a few kilometers over lake Ontario from smog. Today you can see towers in buffalo.
The college of trades has nothing to do with pensions of the elderly. lining government pockets, or the cost to do repairs. The market is in serious disarray with all kinds of illegals working in it and safety violations. It’s their job to fix those problems, It’s not their job to worry about where you are going to make a profit or loose it. That one is the responsibility of the workers. Don’t like it. There is other jobs. I was already forced to switch out from residential to the ICI sector. Due to illegal workers and dirty companies.
So yeah bring on the red tape. I’ll be smiling the day it is announced the carpentry is now compulsory.
hey your entitled to you’re opinion .I live in a small town that has mostly seniors . Unless i move to the city i don’t have the benefit of thousands of potential customers
They are not all rich, a lot live by pensions alone .If the prices go a lot higher there won’t be very much work out there so what are we to do give up and go broke ,move to the city .All i see is money going out for nothing as far as fall protection another cash grab , I have seen a lot of guys up on a roof all the stuff there not tied what good is that . I have been in the trade for 41 years I don’t need somebody leading me around showing me how to do a days work . There is piss all money in the jobs now I don’t need to loose any more.
Google scaffolding collapse Toronto 2009. And tell me again fall protection is a cash grab? I wrote mine for free actually.
I’m pretty sure that a piece of paper isn’t going to give you common sense when setting up anything on a job site it just gives it someone to blame.
accidents do happen and its a tragedy, but using ones head and not relying an a piece of paper doesn’t make you perfect or the job site safe. when all the people out there that s not licensed and a accident happens who will be blamed . must have been sabotaged by somebody else . the hero with all the paperwork wouldn’t be that stupid to make a mistake . maybe we can all cut hair ooopps its a compulsory trade now too . another kick to the working class people.
15 year carpenter : I read the article it was a tragedy I didn’t see in there anything about fall protection certificate did they have it. and if they did would the four employees have been smoking pot . would common sense have told you not to over load the scaffold in the first place . you can tell your employee how and what to do until your blue in the face , doesn’t mean they listen. I work on buildings a max of 2 story .i make sure scaffold is tied off (common sense ) accidents are a outcome usually of stupidity
having paper doesn’t make a person smarter, you can listen and listen to safety rules doesn’t mean you are going to follow completely .
Hi dave. The point I was trying to get at is this with fall protection / cash grab. Yes not having or having it won’t save your life if you are dumb, high or whatever. My argument being is no worker has the right to risk the safety of others. In case of the scaffolding incident. They risked the lives of others that could of been on the ground below.
Our municipalities have to do due diligence in enforcing the rules. (fall protection course) Everyone has there right of opinion of course on if the program is a cash grab or even works… Likewise. what if the municipalities did nothing?
After taking the course myself. I agree with it. I learned things about hazards and types of injuries and ways to prevent them I would have never learned without it.
Papers show that one has been taught the fundamentals, experience will teach common sense. With papers in anything, accountability should also be higher.
and for 94.00 you can go on line and get one . you can do it at home without any on site training is that not a money grab .
google what is the cost for a fall arrest protection . so you just have to write the test .
hope like hell the guy does it out in the field .
just like the motor boat licence . just get a friend to write it for you . who will know right
Its kind of hard to defend a money grab . if it were that easy to make life perfect or close to it .Then why not Make it mandatory for every house hold to take a lesson on the evils of robbery , murder drug use rape i could go on and on make them take a online course or go to school and give them a certificate .
there would be no crime reckless drivers and foolish texting and on cell phones etc. Fines haven’t stopped that yet people have been told countless times . maybe they just need that wonderful piece of paper first
wouldn’t it be nice to live in fantasy land . if you believe that you need help . i live in the here and now . Maybe the next lifetime it will be fantasy land
I don’t doubt doing online courses is a just a guy trying to make a buck off of these tickets. Mine was a hands on certified instructor 4 – 6 hours in class I don’t remember how long exactly now. But it’s gone up this year course is even longer.
The argument you can stop accidents is impossible. The argument that you can significantly reduce accidents degree of seriousness of them through regulations is not only plausible has also been successful as in the electrical trade.
If you worked on houses as long as you say you have. Regarding wiring. You know fully well then that electrical is by far safer today than 50 – 100 years ago. Countless times I have open walls in old houses to find burn marks near electrical wiring. New houses this is virtually non-existent.
Regulations brought about that change for all and everyone is safer because of it or that piece of paper.
Hi, a piece of paper isn’t what makes one works safely, nor what you describe seems to safety as it seems, on the electrical matter.
The materials today offer much better ways of safety then 50 years ago, I agree with you on this one. Accidents happen most like in the pattern of negligence and abuse. But there are new homes, fires start on the attic, do you know why?
These are new wires, very little load, I better leave this mystery for you to solve!
The new wires so safe yeah, I done my house attic about 12 years ago using bx, now you may know why?
New low load wires catching fire in attic? Are you sure that you didn’t mean electrical devices as in a exhaust fan motor over heating and catching the wires on fire? This one is a problem. Especially in warmer climates.
yes i agree things are better today . and i don’t have any problem with my work being inspected . i encourage it when i did plumbing and electrical i always had inspection .that way i knew it passed before i could close up the walls. now the responsibility is for the inspector to find a fault. making me get a license is not going to change the quality for my work or make me be honest or safer . I don’t want to get hurt or not be able to work. but i don’t need any body class me as a fly by nighter or someone who is not skilled . and thats exactly what the system is classing us who are not licensed . can this be denied and show me
Just to set the record straight I don’t have a problem with needing a License for a mechanic or electrician any one who handles hazardous material or the likes of that and where repairs involve for example your car i risk my life on your repairs.for any one who doesn’t need inspection its their responsibility to get it as perfect as possible .
for me when i do anything i have to get permits and be inspected no matter what i do . so why would i have to be forced to belong to something that doesn’t do anything for me but take my hard earned money . and if they have there way fine me for working .
all this will do is force me to work all nights and weekends and have to take cash so nobody knows that i was working at my trade . now i am a crook how can you win when you are forced to the under ground economy .
There is lots of hazardous materials in carpentry. By this logic the Electricians don’t need a license as they they have to get a permit and inspected too…. Speaking of which why don you just write the test? All you need to submit is 7200 hours, or 5400 with school.
You’re last comment is the exact problem. Under ground economy. This we differ greatly on. You are claiming you will be forced under ground. I’m claiming the underground/cash market is so bad now I had to close my business and move into the ICI sector to get away from it. You are complaining about loosing money on licencses.
I am claiming and I have lost more money due to illegal workers than the value of carpentry licenses with a yearly renewal than than the number of years in my life. This is why I don’t share the sympathy. When the cost of unlicensed abuse is higher than the cost of regulations. There is a big problem.
As I stated much earlier in this debate. It is my belief wages have gone down to unstable levels due to the underground. When regulations hit electrical wage went up and the underground shrunk significantly. Carpentry underground market will shrink with regulation not expand. I don’t see how the underground market could expand anymore.
I hired a carpet company. They have 20 or so stores, in Ontario. I can’t say the name due to the accusation I’m making. But when the work was completed. The guy demanded cash payment. I said no. Cheque only. Since he requested cash I requested the receipt before writing the Cheque. Guess what he had no invoices on him too.
This was a legit company with multiple store fronts employing cash installers. He ended up loosing two hours plus gas to drive to his store get a receipt and come back to get paid.
If licensing was in effect. The store could never employ him, I couldn’t of hired him because of lack of documentation. That means a fair wage would be paid and taxes paid.
Sure the bottom of the barrel home reno market will exist underground to a degree. But not a lot. Essentially these people will be hiding from the Tax Man 100% of the time. How long before the CRA catches up to you. Will be the gamble you make. Underground will be extremely risky.
Unlike this carpet company which does both legit and underground work. The tax man comes knocking. They say well it’s been a slow year and a lot of customers don’t want to pay for installation and the legit workers all get screwed over in the process.
PS. Just write the test? =)
What qualifications does this OCOT have ? Are you saying the original license you have isn’t worth the paper its written on ?
writing the test would be the easy way out. do and suck it up .but it is the principal of it more than anything. This weekend i was talking to a elderly chap who proceeded to tell me . his back porch was falling in so his son and a friend spent a weekend fixing it . I asked him if they were licensed or not he said they were.I then asked if he minded telling me if he paid them with a check or cash . he said cash , and did he pay tax on the labour you can guess what the answer was. So when you help your family or a friend and you take cash are you not a member of the under ground economy to or are these situations exempt. or will every one when they get there license all of a sudden not do any thing for friends and family. let them hire someone else .Other than soon being able to be allowed to work there is really no reason to a license. why class every one without a license as a back door thief . that is exactly what is happening here.
Rob: please read the mandate provided through legislation on the OCOT. To get a understanding of it.
Dave:
Who said everyone would be classified as a thief for not having a license? You can still have estimators, owners, office workers etc that is involved with the trade. Why would they need a license. Just the guys doing the work do. Writing the test isn’t the easy way out. Writing the test is a representation that you did you’re homework.
Frankly I find what you just said to be extremely insulting to everyone in this province that went to school studied and worked hard to get there ticket, calling the Exam a easy way out. It’s almost insulting to all professions. Imagine calling a doctor who wrote their medical exam and gets their ticket taking the easy way out.
I’m starting to think you have a axe to grind. If you have 41 years in. Then you already know that people have always been allowed to do work on their own property. So your guy getting his son to help is not even a argument. He did nothing wrong. By this very logic you legally owe tax for giving your kids a weekly allowance while they washed dishes on your behave.
Sorry but that’s not a argument. Licensing has nothing to do with doing work on your own property. Owners can still pull their own permits for all trades.
rob
what i gather is the ocot is a private company with control over your license .
backed by your union and the liberal government. as long as you pay your required fee it will still be good. ( basically a ransom fee) . supposedly when every one joins we can be legal and able to work above and ( underground )
Yes, the OCOT is a private company whose only mandate is to find revenue for the corrupt Ontario liberals, funny how it went from “promoting” the trades to taxing them.
What tradesmen/women should find appalling is that they (ocot) a private organization on Bay St, now consider the licenses issued by whichever body issued them to be null and void unless you pay them a new increased rate especially if your license doesn’t expire till 2016.
That’s the simple fact, this is just the beginning, let this slide and more hits are around the corner. Next it will be mandatory uniforms, hardhats, boots all licensed and OCOT approved at what I’m sure to be reasonable rates.
Ask your barber next time your in for a haircut about the OCOT
Imagine, working all my life avoiding the unions and now having to get in bed with them.
yes and all we have to do is bend over because were in for a real screwing. will they be at the job when its finished to see how your paid and get there percentage .
its nice to know our governments work for us . whats next the KKK enforcers to put the squeeze on all workers right down to people that work to help the elderly for free . there time will be worth something in dollars . will they up there fees each year because of inflation the underground economy will be the least of our problem . every only will get a dirty ass remming by all this
To the 15 year Carpenter, regarding to the new wires on homes attics.
This problem of causing fire have nothing to do with junction boxes, and further more, no much load, neither hot weather, in special in the summer.
Most of these fires occurring in the winter times. The so called ESA/ECRA were made aware of this problem long ago, and fire departments too. But seems if they aren’t to ones who find it, no way you and I and all the others have a say on this, go it. ESA, Yeah, always your input be helpful to improve safety matters, bullshit.
Money first always and safety matters later. ESA inspector ever asked me why I done home attics in bx wires. They look it and approved. These homes were high end and private.
I give you a click on the other comment, why I done my home attic all in bx wire. Some insurance companies were made aware of this matter too and took notice.
Be claver, your comments are very truth expressing, take care, and let not be fooled by the OCOT.
Rob, meaning was: exam maybe the easy way out for those may not have that.
But a lot of people can’t do it, because are in the stage of retirement and others will give up, so the province will lose thousands of grate workmanship and will not recuperate on the filed of trades.
Rob have been very clear on his comments, he have a nice video interview on the OCOT flip flop. Go on line and search for OCOT videos. Rob have done a grate job to help demolish this OCOT.
The government apparently allowed the so called underground economy, by taxing people in away to the unaffordable manner. So who is to blame?
work experience is the real teacher not anyone seats their ass and selling a paper venture or highjiking our trade field.
What fires? I need something to go on. Google search for attic fires, wiring etc is not returning any hits. Because if what you say is true, there is something the ESA is doing. They been at it for years. I’ll mention it once I get some facts on these fires.
i agree that you can work on your own property for now anyway but the fact remains it was for cash or are there 2 underground economy . as far as the license you went to school and learned the trade . I do respect the fact that you worked hard for it . but the fact still remains . that all i have to do is pass a test no real proof of what i have done or anything . my proof of hours i would have to sigh .i could say anything truth or lies . its only for the money they want. but why should i be forced to comply with this money grab policy when i have done nothing wrong . if i don’t pay my dues will they then take away my high school diploma what next . where will it make me a better person rather than just a number for a payment to the ocot
A guy doing work on his own property and slipping his kid a few bucks, is no different than complaining a parent giving there kid a allowance for cleaning the house. Imagine you criticized the parent or phoned the police yelling child labour. The police would laugh and bring you up on charges of disturbing the peace or something else for wasting their resources.
The argument holds no weight. You are distracting this from the bigger picture. It’s a technicality. The goal isn’t to 100% remove bad behaviour the goal is to keep it to a minimum. Some illegal activity will always exist. You can’t stop people from making bad choices, But you can keep the number of them at a minimum. You say the paper is meaningless.
Then why would I hire someone without a grade 12 education before someone with it? I know the the guy with grade 12 can read and write, the guy “wioutout grde 12 prbable spellls lke this.”
That paper just gave me the answer I needed. I know the guy who has grade 12 or fall arrest or red seal is qualified. Back on point.
My beef is this. I was on the Kijiji site and browsed through the construction ads. Every 1 to 2 pages was a Ad from people Expressing OR requesting to be paid in cash for full time service.
These people not only screw the ones who are pro OCOT like myself. They even screw yourself over. With licensing enforcement all this disappears.
As a general rule I am against the $60/$120 dollar fee of the OCOT. That I agree with you on. Why should I pay it. Unfortunately someone has too. Who else will? Us paying it is the lesser of the evils.
Even though it displeases me. I recognize it is the fault of the criminals not mine, not yours. I also recognize that when the illegal market started exploding with the recession I began loosing more money in terms of work than the value of the annual OCOT subscription fee. The huge chunk of the underground market that the OCOT will crush, will more than be justified in the cost for the restored revenue.
It’s why the OCOT gets my vote. Not only my wages went down, my quantity of work went down too. Underground cost me tens of thousands of dollars in loses. The OCOT will cost me a few thousand over my lifetime and the amount restored will be greater than the subscription fee.
Ergo the OCOT gets my vote for subscription and making carpentry compulsory.
To 15 years carpenter, It seems you have missed what my comment said,
about the attic homes fires. Yeah,, keep believe in all these NGO agencies
and you may will see how your future may turn.
The world we all live in it, is more corrupted then you can ever imagine.
What about ESA inspector never show up for electrical inspection in a home electrical entrance and panel B renovation. And when called, hey, what happen, ,, don’t worry, say nothing, the hydro will reconnect that shortly.
should this be on the google site too. Maybe the ESA should allow this kind of inspection never show up, on their web site too.
Experience is the key for any kind of job, And those have the experience should be the ones to teach the others, coming into the filed, not NGO’s agencies flip flopping them selves when asked legitimate questions.
I continue to debate dave on the ocot because he has a valid point and express’s them. He is right that we shouldn’t pay or be subjected to the OCOT. He blames the government/college. I blame the underground market and we probably both have learned a few things from our debate. So it’s mutally beneficial even though I disagree with him. I reconized that for what it is.
You have made a claim. I am requesting validation of the wiring fire claim. You have not told me the cause, or showed me where I can find out more information. On your claim. You are saying a low load wiring fire. Well where? give me some info please.
15 years carpenter, O already told you, I done my house attic wire all in BX wires. Also done it, in very expensive homes to avoid this problem, In special in rural areas. Further more some elders attached homes, with attics, were done this way. Now if you are clever I assume you know what to do now.
But this problem happen in large cities too, in single homes.
Now, no people in the house, and out of no where, the fire start at the attic, no load, or very little, must have been some aliens, right?
This matter is very complicated, if you and I and all others have found what caused the fires wouldn’t be credit for it. But the fire chief and theirs investigators find that, then all credits and honors will be given to them.
Now this was found by a few people, and reported, now credit can’t be at the high echelon. This sensitive matter was asked for changes on the houses attics wires to avoid this fire problem. But only encounter dead hears. Its seems difficult to understand, like your curiosity on this subject, but I can’t tell you in this blog, is very sensitive matter.
Sometimes to protect something isn’t worth it, to loose human lives and property,
That’s all I can say to you about this subject. Some people outcry for some protections, but fail to understand, the damage caused by which whom they stand to protect. Well your career is carpenter, but carpenters were never at fault at this issue, nor electricians, only those made their hears closed, and dark sunglass.
Thanks for been so curios at this matter, and you though the regulators are really good bodies for us electricians, really?
Its money first, money rules, and those don’t have it or can’t get it, will end in a mess. You may ask Dave, maybe he can help you in this issue of attic fire, I believe by now he knows what I am talking about.
you wanted to know why i head a grinder up my ass about licences . I will try to explain : about 4 years ago i started getting migraine headaches soon to the point that i was only getting 3-4 hrs a week on the job. night and day my head was ready to explode soon after my chest had a major heart beat pounding (hard to explain) i spent day after day in bed unable to move . I had hepatitis 30 years ago so i figured this would pass it didn’t so i went to my doctor . and ended up with resident dr, told her what was wrong she consulted with another dr, came back in and said we don’t know why this is happening. you may have to live with it. not we will try this or that to see why its happening if it persists come back in a few weeks.
i spent most of my time in bed head pounding when my dr. came back after a extended holiday i went back. up to then i worked maybe 2 weeks out of 6 months
glad my wife had job or would have lost our home. during my visit to my dr. i said something has to be done or i will lose my home he replied i didn’t know it was bad. he looked at my file and said your hardly ever here so your not faking it. he sent me for tests.
guys having trouble sending rest of this
Hi Dave, O only hope your health problem to be temporary and you stand on your feet once more and fell anew, much better.
This could be stress related, I had a trades man fried, which for many years operated like a pro. He his full license, but I can’t tell you his name nor his trade.
After the OCOT start harassing him with alcpone payments he went bananas.
He enter a stage of depression, just in a way he couldn’t no longer have his free will of being, to do what he have done, for very long time and he loved so much.
Some people take their careers very serious, either licensed or not, respect their costumers like first class, and faced out, forced to pay, or be fined. That’s like a stab on the back.
,
Now he went to see many doctors, also was asked to see a phyciatric dr. with his labels and fables. And so far he feels sick. Looks like he his in deep depression.
He fells like been treated like a criminal. Its a bad situation, closed to his retirement. Now how much he spend so far on health care on his situation?
How many more like him may end in this situation, been a target, for his own career. Sometimes he can’t sleep, and he can’t take it anymore, this OCOT tugs.
The negative impact, if doesn’t reflected in on direction it may appear in another.
Apparently the Ontario government create a bubble ready to burst on two fronts.
The strong economic wheel once Ontario was, now is a flat tire, with many holes on it and no one apparently knows how to fix it.
With best regards
Questo
no bad heart. but my point is its not the parer that makes you professional its the person honest or dishonest.
yes Questo we are going to take it up the rear no matter what. i don’t see how you can work only for cash and not claim it as a business you need receipts for write offs and if you go for bank loan you need a income . if you take all the little help a friend family and yes there will be some cash jobs . no doubt we have about 50-60 trades people in our area maybe more. and a population of 4000 everyone can’t be busy all the time. so lets get rid of the non licensed guys and we eliminate the competion drastic but i guess it will work .
The real problem Dave, is the false boggy man as the underground economy the government created or perceived. If anyone works for cash will waste their money
in the local economy or deposit on the local banks. So the only difference is not paying the tax, and some fees, permits, WSIB and some others. So if the home owners agree with any form of payment, even in cash, it classified as private business. The only way would not be is, on the new construction business, when to many supervision eyes are there.
A lot of people license or not, to operate in theirs careers do abuse, in pricing, dishonesty and disrespectfully, and that prejudice others, The ones keep their careers to their hearts seems the ones suffer the most. But this problem seems minority , its insignificant, to the point of this creation control of the OCOT.
You know as I am a license trades man, I don’t advocated the elimination of any unlicensed trades people. What, in my opinion should be done is: target the ones operate dishonestly either license or unlicensed, cash payments for work will make not much difference, I agree with you to the above comment.
During the winter ice storm in Toronto, a lot of electrical license contractors charged way beyond the average market. And the ESA/ECRA apparently took the change to create the fear of none license electrical people. Fail to explain homes owners, under the Ontario laws, they could fix their electrical problems, by calling the ESA and take a permit. So for this matter ESA. they commit bias.
Apparently they don’t want the reality to be known, that ice storm was used as a propaganda machine. To make sure their money machine still working to support another fraud, like OCOT. Lets see on April 8/2014, if the 85 000 apprentices plus 4.300 were ready for exam C&Q refuse to pay, will not be able to work, because the OCOT dead line, will be real fun. So Dave we may not be getting on the rear end after all.
i guess if i had of done listened to the first 2 dr. i most likely would not be here now .they had no interest in finding out what my problem was .thats why i don’t believe everything can be fixed by giving out a piece of paper .and saying all will be fine
https://www.canadiancontractor.ca/uncategorized/what-the-head-of-enforcement-for-the-ontario-college-of-trades-says-about-his-powers-to-investigate-is-scary#comment-12954
Give a look at this dud. if controversy was natural gas, the room could had exploded on a spark even static.
In health matters.
I agree with you 100% Dave, my father was let know after his first heart problem he would leave only about six months, not by one doctor but by a few.
In and out of hospital many times and same story, never changed.
Only after eight years, he was felling very bad, my mother took a diabetes needle took a sample from his finger and he was to the blowing point, went to the hospital and a lot of questions were asked.
His family doctor wants to disappear, and so did to Europe. Apparently so many cases like my dad, he never check for diabetes.
My father leaved 19 years after the bad news of this malfunction doctors, and all were licensed, Universities MDs. PHDs Cardiologists you name it,,, . The health resources these doctors waste, and never took a cheek for diabetes.
I was amazed that time with all these failure. Its about opinions and maintaining the status quo. I have prove of that on papers. Three box’s filled with documents.
So where is the inspectors for this kind of bla bla and failures. They are dealing with human lives. where is the control for this bullshit, does the OCOT wants to mess around with them? Apparently not, compulsory trades are easy targets and now the OCOT are in apparent bad debt, want everyone on board.
I learn something with all this mess, always take second and third and fourth and as many opinions you can, and study that, compare. Take as much info you can, to be clear, its your life the only one you have to protect, we don’t have two lives, go it.
Take care.
hey Questro it looks like ocot has the power of the gustopo
I watched the mike holmes interview I knew he was arrogant but he doesn’t have a carpenters license . running around classing us as crooks and shoddy workers .If that isn’t calling the kettle black . and if he’s not happy there he can go be a teacher . whats he going to teach kids how to hate unlicensed workers . as you know were all dishonest and have no pride in our work .maybe he should shove his foot in his mouth . he has a lot of followers that believe in him. like leading lambs to slaughter lol
In here you can read Dave, what Doug is expressing, couldn’t be better way.
Thanks Doug,
I could not have written this better myself. I wanted to share all of this you. This is taken from Canadian Contrator.ca
http://www.canadiancontractor….des-is-a-trojan-horse
The following Letter to the Editor comes to us from Doug Leitch, who earlier this year established the Ontario Contractor and Small Business Association (OCSBA). Doug is based in Carleton Place, ON, and he’s an electrician by trade (Power Up Electrical). As you can read here, Doug has done a lot of research into the structure, bylaws, appointments and general development of the newly-established Ontario College of Trades. He’s probably the only tradesperson in our industry who has delved this deeply into an organization that is mailing out $120 fees invoices to tens of thousands of tradespeople in the province, demanding they pay or say goodbye to the Certificate of Qualifications they already earned and paid for.
What is a Trojan Horse? A destructive program that masquerades as a benign application. The Ontario College of Trades (OCOT) is being masqueraded as the savior of our trades in Ontario, but beneath the well-spun anecdotes and marketing lies a destructive program that could do more harm than good.
[In passing the Ontario College of Trades Act that paved the way for this new organization], the Ontario Government propaganda has overtly tried to sell this as a new, modernized organization that will ensure “global competitiveness.” It is unclear, however, how additional layers of bureaucracy, interference and enforcement [in our industry] will ensure competitiveness.
The Ontario government is now in the business of establishing a membership organization. The OCOT governing structure includes up to 98 appointed board members, enforcement officers, and a multitude of administrative staff. OCOT’s operating budget was not approved by the membership, its fees were not set by the membership, and not a single board member has been elected by the membership. It simply continues [the policy] of government appointments and skewed over-representation from special interest groups.
Once you penetrate the layers of governance at the OCOT, the persistent impression of union dominance is difficult to dismiss. All of the large Ontario unions are well represented in the OCOT governance structure and, viewing the list of for whom there is not mandatory membership, the web of union maneuvering appears to take shape. Goliath is being given a lot of influence against the small independent business. Though OCOT board representation is compensated by a nominal stipend and travel reimbursement, it appears Union members receive financial compensation above and beyond this, ensuring it is financially beneficial to be a representative. Compensation for non-union independent members would potentially not cover lost earnings, thus ensuring underrepresentation.
Unions are willing to pay to guarantee they retain the balance of power and control, masquerading as a fully representative governance structure with the advancement of policies favoring special interest groups. The OCOT puts forth comparisons to the College of Nurses and the College of Teachers, both organizations dominated by strong unions and comprised of members of a specific profession, another union connection by means of comparison. Lumping all tradespersons in one basket and saying we can successfully manage your best interests is narrow minded and ludicrous. Given the nature of their relationship, there are fundamental differences between the Union interests and the interests of non-union and Independent tradespersons, let alone amongst vastly different trades.
Though unions have provided influence in beneficial social programs in Canada one would be amiss to claim that unionization will ensure global competitiveness. Eastern Ontario tradespersons face stiff competition from Quebec tradespersons, who are exempt from OCOT membership or enforcement as well as other bureaucratic burdens and fees. Imposing another layer of fees and red tape will only serve to escalate their business costs and make them even less competitive. Imposing further regulation and fees will not make the Ontario economy more competitive, unnecessary bureaucratic burdens hurt the economy, increasing costs for taxpayers, customers and businesses. When businesses, big and small, are allowed to thrive naturally, the economy strengthens and we all benefit. Government interference rarely provides sustainable results and does more harm than good in relation to provincial or global competitiveness.
The OCOT claims a mandate to protect Ontario consumers.But the track record of government interference and scandals shows that this is rarely the end result. Are government officials tradespersons who have taken the time to fully understand the complexities of operating a business in rural and urban areas of the province? This “Big Brother” attitude is destructive to independent businesses and to the large entrepreneurial segment. Now “Big Brother” will have a detailed list of all mandatory tradespersons in the province, ensuring they are registered, licensed, paying their WSIB premiums and any future fees they want to impose at their discretion. Is the OCOT simply masquerading their true mandate with a claim that they are “protecting consumers,” or is it an issue of control under the pretext of public safety?
Stringent safety standards have been continuously implemented in Ontario for decades. Electrical tradespersons are governed by the Electrical Safety Authority (ESA) which is much more adept and efficient at enforcing the intricate Electrical Code and permit inspections; they are experts in their trade evaluating experts in their trade. Building codes have been updated regularly to ensure high standards of safety and enforcement. Again, experts evaluating experts. Ministry of Labour officers regularly visit worksites to inspect certificate of qualifications and safe working conditions. Is public safety really the issue or a revenue generating cash cow strengthening the union power? I leave that question with you.
So do we have a Trojan horse? A destructive, government imposed program that masquerades as a benign application, yet hides potentially dangerous predators? The OCOT claims to protect the Ontario consumer, yet doesn’t directly claim to represent the best interest of all members. Below the surface, the OCOT lacks transparency and appears to be dominated by big union interests. Members have been given no power to elect their representative nor included in the establishment of fees or budgets. Mandatory membership excludes large unionized sectors of tradespersons such as all industrial certifications and concentrates on sectors with high concentrations of independent tradespersons. Voluntary tradespersons may be voluntary now but for how long? All tradespersons should be wary of the OCOT and who is actually driving the boat. A Trojan Horse has already been welcomed to our shores.
Doug Leitch
Ontario Contractor and Small Business Association (OCSBA)
Email: power_up@hotmail.ca
just a little more info revenue canada considers
any moneys earned is to be claimed
any moneys as gifts must be claimed as a gift and include a receipt
any moneys made from performing fiscal work must be claimed
any item sold for moneys (including yard sales must be claimed and proper taxes paid
any and all bartered work performed value must be calculated and claimed
so in reality we can’t legally do anything for any one not even our kids
revenue canada states you are illegal
i wonder why mike holmes interview 5 and 8 are no where to be found on you tube
maybe he did tell the truth and it could hurt his reputation ( like he worked for cash , did electrical and plumbing without his license . heaven forbid he is one of the evil ones satins new best friend . the scurge of this earth
hmmm just a thought
Hi Dave, Very impressive what you describe above. Apparently the only way were are legal is if ones bend over and pay self servitude slavery SSS, isn’t this interesting?
People should start charge them for work on HST invoices, after all its time spend. if one adds all together it will be a large amount of hours unpaid.
Lets say $5 per invoice, would help those are working hard.
The government collect their money in free way, note spending any penne on it.
So only in China, there are child slavery, LOL.
Regarding mike holmes, I have no knowledge on this subject.
exactly Questo
If you get audited you will find out from revenue canada he will have all the answers . to scare you .
If you go to you tube and type in mike holmes interview 1
then all videos are there except 5 and 8 must be too revealing (secrets )
today i asked a couple contractors if they heard what is happening with our trade they didn’t know anything .wouldnt you think some notification would be in the news or news paper by now. very shady of them
Not at this time, The premier today, apparently, she is busy shuffling g ministers around, trying to paint the titanic different color, LOL. Maybe they are trying to unload the scandals, on ruff seas, which may end up at the shores of their survivals, when the boat sinks.
you can also get to it by going to your internet browser and typing in mike holmes interview
http://holmesspot.blogspot.ca/2013/04/canadiancontractorca-interview-with.html
I guess what you are looking for is here: Yeah he can not do electrical as a general contractor, nor plumber or any compulsory trades, however there was a small jobs on this category were let be okay. Home owners can do compulsory trades jobs on their homes when inspected, I think with the exception of gasfitter as furnace and others. What I can’t understand was ESA allowed, the exception is for home owners only when by ESA permit. If in fact ESA allowed clear shows they are another front for money.
Strange hum
ya me too safety authority told me unless it was my own home i could get a permit
not a customer also if caught a fine for customer and me up to 60,000 and possibly court scared me . haven tried plumbing permit yet . won’t get one for older homes
google mike holmes net worth thats scary
maybe we should do tv shows make lots of money slaming rest of the trades is working for him eh
you would think minister would be making things real sweet to get voters there way
instead instead roll them over and shove a pole up there ass and expect there vote
must be a mental problem there somewhere.
You now Dave, I was told, last year some OCOT goons went to some local college preach their bullshit. The interesting part was: in class out of trades, civil construction engineers and others. Wasting the time of students which paid for their tuitions. And this year was announced they may come sometime in the spring. Yeah guys you know,,, we need more sheep, welcome a board of our elusion.
It seems they are in bad debt, trying to divert students from their careers of choice. And there are rumours in some local college, close to exams the teachers change a lot of things which were not taught deliberately.
A group of students were told, to ask what kind of business the OCOT have to do in their class.
They could go sale their stinky fish somewhere.
Yeah I think there are a lot of mental sick suckers on these NGO’s.
It seems the corruption is much wider then can be perceived.
true
its sad that ontario has been blessed with so many .how is it fair not to put all this information on the news channels is it to catch the non licensed trades unaware . isn’t that illegal . they are a private company with government powers it seams
i think by the looks of it there are going to be a lot of angry business owners who hire both licensed and non licensed . the show may not be pretty to watch while were on the welfare line. there could be long line ups could brake the municipal bank. we will see.
The OCOT is already in court on the bias of electrical apprenticeship.
Next month they will have a hot potato to handle, will be real fun, if the MPP Garfield Dunlop bill fails OMG. Then we all be watching the titanic going down, with all their fake beauty.
You can go online and search for MPP Garfield Dunlop, on his web page, you can see a lot of things related to the OCOT, but the later bill isn’t there yet.
does a college teacher for the trades have to be licensed or just have so many years experience. as i had a friend who taught college course in hair dressing a few years back .his credentials were so many years experience in the trade . any one know.
Hey Dave, there are none, no OCOT teachers, there are no benefits either,
Their motto is to grab money nothing else. Apprenticeship programs are trough the MTCU, and once the C& Q is done, the OCOT takes over,$120 a year, but also the apprentices have to pay to the OCOT $60 a year, all this plus tax.
Garfield will do a press conference on April 8 this year about the OCOT. Maybe his private bill is in hold or not to be passed to save those 85000 plus the others 4300 ready for exams and can’t do that. Garfield was trying a extension of four years, to avoid this mess, because this OCOT was never voted for it.
These trades people refuse to pay to them, but there are a lot of certified people already refuse to them as well.
I Believe miss, bla bla, would not be able to handle this problem.
He his asking for shut it down or rebuild it. A lot of trades are for no negotiation with these cronies. For sure shut it down will prevail. We need to create and save jobs not destroy them.
there will be a lot of unemployment if it continues .
I was talking to our Reave asked about welfare for those who may need it .if jobs are taken away. all he would say is it will be bad for municipalities and local economy.
he hopes it will be resolved quickly without killing the economy .
In here Dave something just made important news. I thought this may hold another few weeks but just came to be a surprise to many.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/03/27/ontario-police-pursuing-a-criminal-charge-against-mcguintys-chief-of-staff-over-gas-plan-scandal/
May soon be the OCOT cronies too. Did miss bla bla knew this shit?
yes and i read in the sun that union is going to fight for the workers now to. jumping ship i guess
pretty much shows how corruption, will we ever know just how much there really is
How would the out come of this be if the ocot only targeted the businesses and companies that don’t have the trade license for there job what ever that would be.
And the employees that are not an apprentice shut them down. OUT OF WORK
leaving the businesses alone that the owner is licensed allowing them to have unlicensed labourers to mainly do the un intelligent jobs. perfect scenario . get rid of the competition you will have a work force to be reckoned with . what happens if the house burns or something drastic someone is at fault . who takes the blame can’t be the licensed man must be the uneducated labourer . Like electrical safety authority told me all licensed electricians do perfect work so must plumbers and carpenters .
not saying there all bad but Try working behind some of the cow boys there not all good .
I was looking at a few news paper stories on disgruntled electricians and (labours ) apprentices laying conduit. . the comments were its unsafe , not there job etc.
Would they be employees of the construction company or the electrical company . And would the work not be inspected .
If i hired a contractor to do work for me and he had a helper i would expect him to make sure the helper did the job properly . and the sub contractor is responsible for his employees work qualities .
As a licensed trades person training a apprentice are you not responsible for training the helper properly . or not.
Dave, yes, journeypersons are responsible for the work and training of the apprenticeships. On the Electrical issue, three journeypersons for one apprentice.
To clean and carrier coffee on break times, this kind of bullshit irritate me to my core, when I was you know,,,,,,,,. Now seems like some review on this issue not 3:1 but 1:1. its should be flexible, at least for small family business to have the opportunity of sons and daughters to became trades people as their parents.
Should depend on the volume of the business, and the experience of journeypersons and with the technology we have today, more hours of training should be the approach idea, and night time school or vice versa. Also short the time of apprentice ship program, to two years maxim.
I worked days took school at night, and worked nights and took school at days. And I took as many degrees I could take, on my field.
However, there are trades which have no problem on this issue, but on the electrical trade, there is this kind of retarded mentality, when some unions made the rules for the others.
Its like small business in some trades entered a pattern of destruction and condemnation. Now came the OCOT as the false savvier., preaching on costumers protection as a collection agency.
Questo
I know several several licensed electricians, plumbers, mechanics etc. that have been working for years .I cat say i remember any of they condemn any other trades out there like the guys moving up the ladder as they do now a days . with that mind set we are in trouble .the future of ontario and any other province that has a childish attitude toward others that are in competition can’t be good . it will get to a point where you won’t have any other interest or hobby because you might be taking income from someone else . not a life that i would be happy to be a part of .
Hi Dave, apparently this whole thing as the 2009 trades apprenticeship act, was a copy cat of the Saskatchewan Province trades apprenticeship act.
The unique bullshit lie, who needs it? I had electrical business before, and have some certified E trades and none certified, in no time those weren’t certified receive different treatment then those were. These were legal immigrants.
Grate workers in pursuit for better life, but some of them dreams were cut short.
Back then the ESA/ECRA bullshit start messing around with business, and those none certified were let go, some of these were electricians before, but had a language barriers, and would need more time to adapted them selves and go for C&Q. Some of these desisted their carers completely.
So I end up close my business and looked for a job. I was making a good leaving, but my business like so many others were destroyed by the liberal creation of unwanted side agencies.
In the so called third world countries, a journeyman any kind, finish his/her job, inspected twice, and signs a responsibility term. For example, if is electrical, will stand until power hoked up by the electrical company, then the home owner resigned and void that.
if he have home insurance, if not, no power, because the electrician will not authorised, on his liability insurance alone. Sometimes some electricians give a time term on their jobs, like warranty, that’s up to the electrician, and some insurance policies, terms, rules, and so on.
The sign R term is attached to an insurance form, liability. Once the home owner or any G construction company signs over, they became response able for it.
Copies go to the local cities, to the insurance, and to the local power company.
So works as well with others company providers, and others trades involved.
Electrical inspectors is only for large industries, and large commerce. Journeyman are qualified as knowledge able people. In here they are apparently treated as children.
I keep reading that this is all for the customer ( home owner) why is it that anyone I talk to knows nothing about any of this. Shouldn’t they be informed of the new rules, that are going to be put in place for there safety . Should the customer with the money have some say in this matter?
. Or is there opinion not important. And how will pricing be regulated to make it a equal playing field?
Will there be a standard hourly price a contractor is forced to charge?
If you have no work will you be allowed to work for less money to get work?
Will there be someone be present to be sure all contractors price the same on each job?
does any one know?
What happens in towns and villages where parents are struggling to make ends meet pay there bills etc. who cannot afford to send there child to trades school. what happens then?
There are only so many box stores .
We are told there are not enough good trades people how is this going to bring up the totals of licensed trades. Will it not be only the more wealthy will survive and work.
With the rising cost of everything will the average low income earners be able to provide the education , you will need in the Ontario new (world ) order?
There will be a lot of existing people out of work where will they fit in this scheme of things .
Or doesn’t any one care as long as every one pays there fees?
You receive a wage through EI when you go to trade school and school goes in 2 month segments, so apprentices arent off work for long and they receive a temporary wage through EI. The reason there is a shortage of certified carpenters is because it is a non mandatory trade. No reason to sign a young person up as an apprentice and actually train them if you can just hire them without signing them up.
College of Trades makes the Sunshine List!
Today was also the day the salaries and taxable benefits of Ontario Public Service (OPS) and broader public sector (BPS) employees who were paid $100,000 or more in 2013 were released… and 10 members of the College of Trades made the cut! Congratulations to:
Robert Guthrie • Registrar and CEO • $180,000.08
Robert Onyschuk • Director of Compliance & Enforcement • $136,668.30
Anthony Brenders • COO/Executive Director • $134,006.36
Wally Zajac • Manager, IT • $123,451.86
Warren Barbour • Director of Member Services • $122,996.46
Tetyanna Tesolin • Manager, HR/Labour Relations • $110,224.95
John Poirier • Manager, Standards • $104,692.26
Dainora Juozapavicius • Senior Advisor • $103,312.34
Rohit Deengar • Manager, Finance/Controller • $102,796.95
Jeffrey Green • Manager, Investigations & Hearings • $100,504.56
This is just the first 10 of them, Tsubouchi is the CEO now.
Inspectors are an a range of 70k or more, each times as many they are then = total, plus 4 week vacation pay. All this just to see a piece of paper.
You mention some kind of a flat price across the board, really, nothing but fantasy.
This is the new way of creating jobs, for their cronies.
Hey Dave, look it, now you know what is happen but future ways is unknown
hey Questo
went to petition against ontario collage of trades. they say they are against the underground economy, but think anybody hiring a bad carpenter should be fined.
on the other hand they are looking out for the customer . Who is looking out for his own wallet.
why not make it easier for the home owner to make a claim against the (carpenter)
As far as stoping cash jobs It won’t happen every one wants a deal.
As far as warranty if you did the job properly in the first place you most likely not have to go back. and if you do then as a good contractor do the right thing and fix it.
this whole thing is just a screw the working people . they don’t know how to solve a problem so take from everyone .
I would be happy to make 50,000 a year for myself . I don’t get paid unless i work.
nobody pays me for rain or,snow days. my loss
here is one to mull over
your not going to totally clean up the industry . look who really created this :Go to any book store you can get a DIY book for pretty well any thing you want to build or fix. you can buy a repair manual for almost any car or truck even heavy equipment .Several for Plumbing and electrical, decks, docks etc etc. Problem is there written by professionals licensed and unlicensed.
and if you can’t find the right one your after go on the internet try youtube there is a video for almost anything .
You don’t have to go to school and learn the trade because you can buy a book and look up what you have to do. All you have to do is apply that information and hope you do it successfully. Years ago without this knowledge you had to ask someone that has been in the trade and has the know how . With the addition of The DIY industry along with television anybody can swing a wrench or a hammer .
Try putting a stop to information books thats a lot of the problem.
Dave, don’t get to close to the snow man, he will start to melt down, its spring time you know, LOL.
This Oligarchy, Collection, On Tax, ( OCOT)
Its all a fraud, form the start point, its very clear a tax grab, next week April 8/2014 will be a grate day, lets hope.
Take care
Questo
Keep me informed as to what happens as there is little to no info from the news channels. (wonder why ) As i am going to work ,
Hopefully finish my jobs before starting a new career as a illegal immigrant. In this third world country where i was born and called home (stupid aye).
Hopefully they can come up with a cure for STUPID and GREED soon.
It’s about time. I am a 30 year old red seal certified carpenter. It took me 9 years to complete my apprenticeship exactly because carpentry is a non mandatory trade. Why hire ticketed carpenters and train the next generation of apprentices if you could just hire someone for cheaper to do the same work. Why should any young person even consider going through the apprenticeship program if it doesn’t mean anything? If the conservative mp Dunfield feels so strongly on the subject, why don’t we de-certify plumbing and all the other trades which are mandatory certification?
To answer your question, “why hire ticketed carpenters and train the next generation of apprentices if you could just hire someone for cheaper to do the same work.” The reason is because there are thousands upon thousands of guys who can do the job just as well without tickets and are willing to do it for less. Those guys want to work too, and if they chose to learn the trade outside of apprenticeship and they learn it well, they should not be penalized.
The reality is, apprenticeship only means something if the person is MORE skilled at doing the job than the guy who did not take it. That is often not the case. The apprenticeship program should continue to have to compete with the unregistered guys and let the market decide its value.
If someone is unregistered but is as skilled as you say, they can simply challenge the test and get their ticket (I worked with guys who did this). Let’s take your logic further though, let’s allow the market decide whether someone is a doctor, lawyer, accountant, teacher, cops….etc.
i believe the customer should have the right to pick and choose who they want working on there property without the fear of being fined for not having a licensed person at the site. There should be something in place for customers to get help if the work was done improperly or butcherd .
If people want to apprentice it is better for employers as they are getting someone with some experience , an asset.
If every one is licensed are they not going to have to compete for the job.
someone will have to work for less regardless .so how does that solve the problem of who is working for less than the others.
The market dictates what you can charge, If there is no work like in the early 90s we made enough to put food on the table. there were a lot of days waiting for the phone to ring . When it did ring you took the job for what ever you could just to keep your employees, in case the market improved.
I have a question for you Jacob
you got your carpenters ticket of your own FREE WILL .
But you think that its only right to FORCE others to get there ticket and FINE them if they don’t.
Where is our right to freedom . Or do you think that should be taken away too
Dave, stop watching FOX news and pick up a book. Maybe you’ll figure how things work in the real world. As a society we have decided that there should be a minimum standard of qualification for 90% of jobs out there (from electrician, plumber to accountant, doctor and on and on). If you don’t think that there should be a minimum standard of skill and intelligence to be a carpenter, all you are doing is insulting my trade by saying anyone can do it.
Dave, stop watching FOX news and pick up a book. Maybe you’ll figure how things work in the real world. As a society we have decided that there should be a minimum standard of qualification for 90% of jobs out there (from electrician, plumber to accountant, doctor and on and on). If you don’t think that there should be a minimum standard of skill and intelligence to be a carpenter (maybe because you can’t pass the C of Q), all you are doing is insulting my trade by saying anyone can do it.
Jacob for your information i have been in the carpentry trade for 41 years . For the first 10 under other carpenters , I did residential electrical and plumbing until it became illegal to touch, all inspected and passed . Thats why i have repeat business.
Im not insulting the trade those with licenses are insulting those of us that have been in the trade all our life , and class us as incompetent , all for a piece of paper.
And by the way why not stop the DIY channels and the service manuals and auto repair manuals and electrical and plumbing ,decks etc etc, from being on the shelf. In case you didn’t know any body that can read can look online or in a book and figure out how to do it, whatever the task.
Look at the manuals there put out by trades people who have been in the workforce for a long time and most are licensed. blame them for all the job losses .
Those books explain in detail as long as you can read. what you do with the knowledge is up to you. As far as anyone being a carpenter or any other trade yes they can be as long as they can read and understand what their doing. You read a book had a understand the information and apply what you know.
You make the trade sound like rocket science . spoiler alert its not.
I don’t know what your building , but I’m building homes and cottages .
If you have any intelligence at all you can learn any thing, unless you figure those without a license are unable to read and write or understand anything .Which now you would be insulting the general population with out a license including new apprentices.
.Making me get a license to do what i have done most of my life, to prove to you and every one else I know how to build and renovate . Basically so i can pay a ridiculous fee .is just bull shit.
There are reasons for a dr. and others to be certified they have your life on the line.
All the work i do is inspected by someone who is supposed to be smarter that all the rest of us. If a customer needs to know the quality of my work they can call my other customers. Unless you figure there stupid to .
As far as the test passing isn’t a concern . Im not doing it just to please those who think there better than me or any one else .
why would i want to spend more money and more along with a yearly fee. there is little money in the trades so lets put out more , and do you think ocot won’t keep putting up the price each year .
My customers are happy the inspectors are happy why should i have to pay to make you happy .
Maybe the best is to waste taxpayers money and get retrained . my source of income has been taken away so go on welfare and let the government retrain us .I only have to waste 8 years until retirement.
That piece of paper is only as good as the person doing the job they can still be a butcher and do a shitty job I have repaired there work too . You can’t say there all good
.Ps I don’t watch fox news and there isn’t any thing on tv to explain the stupidity involved and the real cash grab. If the home owners of ontario where involved in making a decision on this it wouldn’t happen , There trying to save money, not more. explain to customers that your piece of paper has added thousands to a new house . hmmm getting somebody for cash next. more for the underground economy.
Homeowners have the right to work on their own house regardless of trade certification so let’s drop the DIY arguement. From the sounds of it you oppose mandatory certification for all the trades. The application for mandatory certification would obviously have accomadation for grandfathering people into the trade, if you have the jobsite experience, and there would be a transition period for several years before actual enforcement. You might be retired by the time this is actually fully enforced. The lack of mandatory certification, means that we are not producing the next generation of trades people. The only reason I managed to get my ticket is because I was stubborn. I had many folks tell me to not bother since “you don’t need it”. I worked in almost all aspects of of residential (framing, roofing, foundations, trim etc) before I found someone to apprentice under. I am a better carpenter because of the training I went through, jobsite and in school. If we want to get young people into the trades we need to provide a clear path of how to go about it. That doesn’t mean that every carpenter with a ticket is a good carpenter (just like every doctor isn’t as skilled as every other) but at least it provides a minimum standard of knowledge and provides a clear path for young people to develop a career in the trades.
Am i against mandatory certification for all trades I would say yes to a point. there are jobs out there that take specialized training where lives are at stake . I have never heard of a house falling to the ground that a experienced carpenter built . (non licensed) It comes back to you have a option to be a trades person or not .Why should you have to be told you have to go to school . Wasn’t that only until you were 16 .
As far as grandfathering that would mean here is your license for being in the trade so long. you lasted this long you must do a good job. but no pay your money for the test and try after , you get your ticket. for me and a lot of people this ticket means nothing , but another kick in the balls something more out of pocket to a greedy government. I don’t need a ticket to show that i know how to build and renovate.
As far as the home owners where do you think some of these bad carpenters are coming from most are guys that did some work at home after watching DIY or helped build a deck or something . Prices go up home owners will do there own work shitty or not .who is checking Quality.
In reality yes it does matter you give someone the tools and some knowledge and they will build it. good or bad they try.then you get the under ground economy problem again.
Are you basically saying that because i didn’t go to trades school that my skills at being a carpenter are below average . Over the last 41 years and over 65,000 hrs would beg to differ along with over 3000 hrs of auto body restoration. ( old cars ) over 30 years . (winter months) And countless hours of repairing my backhoe , skiddsteer , track loader, dump truck and my other vehicles . From motor to reared work . In case your wondering why because at $100.00 per hour i would be bankrupt in no time . So i don’t need a piece of paper to say I’m qualified at what i do. I can pat myself on the back just as easy with out it.
If people think this is good for the economy they may be sadly mistaken , it may be the biggest cash grab only .
in theory if you went to school and get your ticket . you are portrayed to be better that the non licensed guy right you are qualified ( but I’m not). so he or she should be the professional in reality perfect . If your not all you are is a person with a ticket that can’t really do your job right.
so how are you any different from the guy without the ticket . supposedly you know your job but not very good at the practical side of it.( so how are you qualified)
I don’t have any problem with you or any one else going to school. forcing it down my throat i do.
Based on your last statement, I would say you have no understanding of how an apprenticeship actually works or what is involved. The school aspect is a small part of an apprenticeship, the majority is on job training. I have the practical as well as the theoretical knowledge. You only have one and I have met many guys on the job who had 40 some years experience and were still butchers.
Im at a loss
If they were butchers then why are they kept on. If any one on my employees were not up to a good standard they would be sent packing , For the simple reason the customer wouldn’t pay me. were these people unlicensed or licensed?
thats why i say the home owner should have a place too leave a complaint. and be the one to pick and choose who they want to do there work.
I don’t think most people know if there is. Other than their lawyer, which could cost a lot of money to fight for the customer.
what benefit other than having a ticket to pay for along with a yearly fee is it going to do for me. ( other than not allowing me to work) will we be better at our job , honest , fair will a miracle happen and we will suddenly do things different .
I went to college and got a 2 year diploma to become an Instrumentation Technician. For a while, I thought that the diploma would be a Certificate of Qualification, but I found out the real truth afterwards.
It’s true that college wasn’t useless. I did a lot of hands-on in college, enough that I can hook up systems myself, but if I did that in a commercial setting now, I’d have to get an apprenticeship and go through that.
It’s almost as if I wasted 2 years of my life on the stupid college. If I don’t get this apprenticeship, I’ll have to do a job completely unrelated to what I studied in college and will never get ahead. This heavy regulation of trades needs to end. If someone graduated from college and learned the trade in college, then for heaven’s sake, let them get into the damn profession.
Pre-apprenticeship programs are a waste of time and are simply a money grab by colleges. They prey on young people who want to get into the trades and can’t find an apprenticeship position. The degree you get at the end is not worth the paper it is written on unfortunately. This is why there should be a clear path to get an apprenticeship position. Instead, we are channeling young people into expensive programs and they still don’t have an actual apprenticeship position after they are done.
Pre-app does not qualify you to work in the field, sorry
As Jacob pointed out they are merely a money grab, but if you do manage to get an apprenticeship afterwards then you may not have to do your basic in school but proceed to intermediate, so it may not be a total loss, find out as it may differ from trade to trade.
before you took this course were you told that it it would not count towards a trade?
If not why , it would seem that you were misled , had you known it was not a qualifying course would you have taken it ? My guess not. Why have a course if it isn’t going to help put you into the field of work you are interested in. Other than it keeps a teacher employed i guess.
Al
a pisser for sure ,and i agree you did your time it should not be wasted. Its like all the rest of the bullshit just a money grab. I have never said school was a waste. In fact from a employers point of view having training is definitely an asset, when looking for work. why not start training in high school they have shop classes to introduce you to the trades , let them start earlier . would that not keep costs down for apprentices ,and maybe they would be more interested in school. I know for me school was boring as hell, most of which i have never used in my line of work .
I think when this is over and i hope soon, there is going to be a lot of people going to soup kitchens for lunch.
Ontario College of Trades BARBOUR WARREN
$122,996.46
Director of Member Services
Ontario College of Trades BRENDERS ANTHONY
$134,006.36
Chief Operating Officer/Executive Director
Ontario College of Trades DEENGAR ROHIT
$102,796.95
Manager, Finance/Controller
Ontario College of Trades GREEN JEFFREY
$100,504.56
Manager, Investigations & Hearings
Ontario College of Trades GUTHRIE ROBERT
$180,000.08
Registrar and Chief Executive Officer.
Ontario College of Trades JUOZAPAVICIUS DAINORA
$103,312.34
Senior Advisor
Ontario College of Trades ONYSCHUK ROBERT
$136,668.30
Director of Compliance & Enforcement
Ontario College of Trades POIRIER JOHN
$104,692.26
Manager, Standards
Ontario College of Trades TESOLIN TETYANNA
$110,224.95
Manager, Human Resources/Labour Relations
Ontario College of Trades ZAJAC WALLY
$123,451.86
Manager, Information Technology
Here is why you are paying this Ontario Cabal Oligarchs Traitors
The CEO now is Tsubouchi
Also there are inspectors at 80k plus benefits and vacation pay 4 weeks at the start. Only miserable minds like the ones we had and still at the government, to allow such a bullshit to take place, it looks like Ontario legislature was used as a tool to make this bullshit appear under the legal realm, under the majority of the Liberals. Which they should be dismissed for incompetence, long time ago.
I can’t wait and see all these side agencies on the road of misery, out of business. The incompetence level of the Liberal government, is insupportable.
May the occupy movement at queens park and other places where these agencies are located demanding them abolished, and don’t leave until accomplished peacefully. May be the only way the government understands.
Although, I fully agree with mandatory certification for carpentry, I never did understand the point of the college of trades since they essentially do the same work as the Ministry of Education&Training. I consider myself lucky, since I got my ticket before it’s creation and so I don’t have to pay a yearly fee or anything. Not sure if that would change with mandatory certification. P.S. I’m not a fan of the liberal government but if Hudak and his batshit crazy minions get in, I’m moving to another province.
jacob
beware that will change this is about screwing you and me everyone out of MONEY nothing more. they don’t give a rats ass about anything else.
My only concern is if the liberals have promised these crooks a multimillion dollar pay out to shut this down . ( like the gas plants) Then will it just get slightly modified. some great province we call home.
Dave, what you are referring is about the Bill 183 2009 apprenticeship act, also the by laws of this monster money grab, so far is unknown any promise millions if this monster disappear over night.
Any bill can be reversed, if is in prejudice of the public interested, if the public really outcry for it, the problem in this province right now is the two head eagle parties, liberal and NDP. The later one have a lot of responsibility on this mater, will be reflected soon or later, when the elections come.
Someone expressed the PC may end in problematic issues if is elected, not so, if they get things right, and justices, in a cense of balance, cutting a lot of cash cows, they may will succeed. Free marked will create more jobs, not rescind them.
I leaved under facism before, but at least they have the decency to respect those which were certified and not. Both side of the trades were allowed to do their jobs freely, no imposing memberships. The way we have it, is disgusting, shameful, under so called democracy, its like wolfs dressing in sheep cloths.
Its no different then the pirates boat, assaulting everything in their line of navigation.
True
there is no doubt there is shoddy work out there but there is definitely more improper use of taxpayer money . The underground economy is a drop in the bucket in comparison.
As a journeyman carpenter having spent 12 months in the classroom learning construction theory and an additional 3 yrs apprenticing.. I’m of course all for certification.
It’s understandable that uncertified workers would be against being certified reducing it instead to a gov cash grab argument. What else can they say in their defense?
If they’re in favour of not being TQ, then maybe they should be taking their cars to uncertified mechanics for any repairs. haha.. NOT.
John You won’t likely believe me but there are a lot of back door mechanics that Know as much or more than a licenced mechanic . Think about it . not every car or truck on the road are fixed at a garage.if they were garages would have to work 24 hrs to try to keep up with repairs. and be months behind.
If there all bad you should see them lined up on the side of the road broke down . I haven’t seen that yet have you?
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It can not come any sooner. I am a red seal carpenter and have watch poor at best workmanship for years.Why is it that plumbing electrical sheat metal etc have to be licenced and the trade that is responsible for the structure is not.
How can Dunlop say anything about this issue being a licensed plumber. We have to many guys just swinging a hammer you have yo goto trade school and write your c of q to know what you are doing. Why is it that plumbing electrical and many of the other trades have to licensed and trade that is responsible for the building envelop is not. I am a rwd seal carpenter since 03
It’s long overdue. Most of the other trades have compulsory certification and they are doing fine.
It’s about time this happened!!! Carpenters will finally make a decent pay and it will get rid of the average guy that picks up a hammer an thinks he’s a carpenter .
I am a red seal carpenter in AB and while I know that this doesn’t automatically make you a good one (I know lots who aren’t) It shows initiative and dedication. Anyway, anyone and their dog can be a “carpenter” and what this does is give a crack head with a hammer a job they are not qualified to do. And I have to some how be competitive bidding jobs against them. As well it drives down the hourly wages that employers are willing to pay. Not being compulsory makes it a cheapened industry lacking respect, most people try to work down prices with carpenters because they know that they can. This doesn’t happen to compulsory trades because they have a industry standard. Red seal guys from east coast to west need to stick together and make a point of getting what we are worth. What’s the point in going to school and dedicating all that time and money if at the end of the day you aren’t really that much better of?
A Red Seal should be mandatory in Carpentry in Canada. Anyone who argues that it is not necessary is not a tradesman. I have heard numerous arguments that it is not required if you have the experience or time in the trade. This fable is pushed by those not willing to put the time into their craft.
I am still amazed that if I want to cut and style your hair I need to be certified but I can build a $300,000 home with no license, no certification, no insurance and no training.
Don’t let those that don’t see the value in training and certification hold you back. The Red Seal shows a commitment to your trade, knowledge and skill. The Red Seal is only the beginning, this is a life time of learning and dedication. New materials, new tools, new methods and the ever changing Building Code and Municipal By-Laws.
If you are intent on finishing your Red Seal and becoming a Certified Journeyman Carpenter you are entering into a Trade Guild that dates back centuries. Be proud of your accomplishments. Show off your projects, be proud of them and never ever stop learning and striving to add to your skills and knowledge.
do i need to renew my journeysman certificate i recieved in 1989 for carpentry is this permanent i did my 5 hour test ect and passed recieved my license?
Hi, How can I get my framing license?
Thank You
You don’t officially need a license to work as a house framer, much to the consternation of the carpenters’ unions, which is what this story was all about. However, if you DO want to get qualified as a carpenter, contact (1) local carpenters’ union (2) Red Seal apprenticeship folks (3) local community college. Not in that particular order, mind.
Just reading this article now after having (and still dealing with a poor general carpenter).
I’m a licenced plumber and a member of the College of Trades, while I don’t totally agree with the College of Trades I feel General Carpentry should be on the list of compulsory trades.
These contractors have to deal with the public on a daily basis and most are working on our biggest investment we will make in a lifetime, our homes.
After seeing first hand the unreliable and poor workmanship our unlicensed contractor provided us, I think there needs to be some kind of control system put in place.
After waiting 3 years I finally have a lawyer to deal with this contractor to try and finish the exterior of my house which should never have to happen.
Compulsory certification of carpenters has nothing but positive effects if done properly. Why should the largest investment of your life and the structural safety of it be left to flunkies with hammers. Without certification, carpenter becomes a trade of last resort for workers and has proven to be a liability for consumers and builders
Codes are mandatory, inspections are mandatory, building permits are mandatory, engineering drawings for structural work are mandatory… What about a carpenter having a stamp from an association with no inspection capability guarantees safe and professional work? Nothing. Nothing whatsoever.
i have a carpentry a renovation technique course but my friend say you need 7200 hours job experience to get pr in Canada . how it possible to 7200 work experience in 3 year work permit. what is the pr procedure can you tell me