Magazine for professional home renovators.

I’m a one man handyman… and the WSIB premium rate I was quoted was 9.1% on gross… How the hell do they justify this shakedown?

Editor’s note: If you are a small renovator in Ontario thinking of doing a single commercial job, and you decide to follow the law after the WSIB decided to herd another 80,000 contractors into its clutches last year with its new rules, here’s what they will do to your business, according to “Rob,” who posted yesterday.

It all reminds me of Winston Churchill’s warning in the 1945 election about what happens to government powers that are unchecked by common sense: “Vast bureaucracies of civil servants: no longer servants, no longer civil.” (Churchill was defeated, but that’s another story.)

“I’m a one man handyman doing residential repairs for over 20 years, registered with Revenue Canada and insured for liability and personal injury for the entire time.

While working on a client’s personal residence, I was offered the opportunity to do some light maintenance work at some “coffee shops” he owns, part of a large chain that are independently franchised.

Thinking this might be a good opportunity to grow my small business into the commercial sector, and wanting to do it right, I made the mistake of contacting (the Ontario) WSIB to enquire about registering my business with them.
The “handyman” premium rate I was quoted was 9.1% on gross.

This is to repair door closers, washroom door stalls, unclog toilets, replace toilets, maybe paint washroom and the occasional drywall repair,when required, etc… This is just small general maintenance… WOW

If I was a plumber, to unclog that same toilet, my (WSIB) rate would be around 3.6%.
And a plumber could also replace a door handle .

So by working on these small “commercial” shops on an as-needed basis (once or twice a month) my gross income (residential and commercial) will now be hit with a 9.1% tax. How the hell do they justify this shakedown?
Needless to say, I passed on the opportunity.
My head is about to explode.

Funny thing is , I called my MPP, Vic Dhillon, looking for some sort of explanation for this and he was pretty much speechless. From his mouth: “That doesn’t sound right.” What the hell is going on here.”

Posted by
Steve Payne is the editor of Canadian Contractor magazine
57 total comments on this postSubmit yours
  1. I so agree, WSIB is truly out of control. As with the Small Handyman type business we are all HIT with unreasonable rates based on WSIBs perception of what we do in our own business.
    Then if we have an incident at the business where WSIB should pay for the rehabilitation and wages for an injured worker, [IE slip/fall, or any other incident which would deem the worker MEDICALLY unfit for work] they make it so difficult to collect anything that the worker goes back to work early and still injured just to ensure they can make their bills and put food on their families plates. This is the only way to get a paycheck or they have to resort to their own OTHER Insurance to get any compensation. AND now we find out that if the injury was caused by a third party outside of the business [IE traffic accident] then the worker cannot sue the other driver for additional unrecovered expenses if they opt to get paid by WSIB!!
    In either scenario WSIB is making it more and more difficult to collect any monies that are due to the legitimately injured worker.
    So if we all have OTHER Insurance for liability, wage replacement, disability etc. I ask you all WHY does the Government INSIST we all carry WSIB?? I think it should only be for those who cannot obtain other insurance.
    We present our Certificate of Insurance on all job sites that ask for it and our WSIB Clearance Certificate. So we are all doubly insured and getting stung.
    So MPs and MPPs out there reading this, whats up with that!!!
    Small businesses are getting hit big time in all areas, so the Little Man and Woman and the Mom and Pop Shoppes are going to go down as they cannot justify to their clients why they have to raise their prices again, just to ensure they can pay the Governments Insisted Upon Taxes and Coverages.
    As our Handyman stated, adding 9.1% premium to all his jobs just upped his prices by 15%. WSIB, maybe YOU should explain it to our clients why they are having to pay for our double Coverages!!

  2. It certainly seems like we are all in the same predicament with this WSIB.
    I had no issues paying for my employees (2), but when they hit me with the WSIB it was a hard pill to swallow. I did have far superior coverage through private insurance for the last 25 years. How many of us are going to report or make a claim with WSIB as self employed individuals. I know many contractors and I can tell you there isn’t a single one who would even consider making a claim.
    This cash grab has also effected satellite business such as the private insurance industry. My daughter who works for one of these companies has said that they have experienced an extreme downwards spiral in sales and a huge increase in cancellations. This translates in to lost jobs!
    I’m sure this has also effected many other industries as well.
    This is nothing more than an attempt to download costs on the backs of the honest hard working contractors to support a poorly run deficit ridden corporation. It has actually enhanced the position of many individuals operating in the underground economy.
    I encourage you all to go to Randy Hillers site and sign his WSIB Bill 119 petition.
    http://www.randyhilliermpp.com/take_action?utm_campaign=bill119_update&utm_medium=email&utm_source=randyhillier

  3. I remember when I file my first quarter or wsib premium. I called them and said I’ve logged all my hours for commerical work, is that what I put in the total income box.

    Boy was I dumb. That would make to much sense. Nope you must pay on all your income for the entire quarter.

    I told someone the other day, You know how much it will cost to change that light bulb at your store. $2000. That’s how much one hour of commerical labour will cost me for the quarter.

    The best type of government is the one you don’t notice.

  4. This has made me so furious since I read about it in 2012. I have talked to every MPP I can face to face – even as I bought my Xmas tree last December.

    The political hack I. David Marshall that is the CEO even got a $200,000 BONUS for implementing programs like this. Hey buddy, how about a 10% pay CUT to cover your own UFL (unfunded liability – yes they even have an acronym for it)

    Just makes me spitting mad! MFers

  5. f that plumber changes the door handle the College of Trades will come and take him away in the night.

  6. It is time to introduce a Bill to have ALL Politicians pay into WSIB. They need to feel what a 9.1% (mine is 9.63%) tax grab feels like.

  7. Bill 119, the mandatory coverage for independent operators in the construction industry. Reading the quotes and studying to act itself leads right back to the lawsuit I launched against them. The legislation dictates coverage and exemptions however as we see here the exemptions are not even real nor are they realistic specifically for renovator’s. When you look at how this actually works the only “person” who qualifies for the exemption is the individual who works and is paid directly by the home owner. This does not work if per say you are paid in a company name. A company has an office, a secretary (employee) etc… you are now an employer and subsequently subject to the same rules. That being said with the role out of auditor’s you can bet your bottom dollar when they get to you you will be forced to pay. That deduction you use as your wife as you secretary or you child as a casual assistant now becomes the subject of the Audit and you will be forced to pay. All of this under the auditors ability to enforce what they believe is in the act however it is not in the act. It is depicted in the “board policy” and as my lawsuit clearly shows the “board Policy ” and the act are grotesquely different.

    Lets take a step back and breakdown this horrid little system that a lot of contractors are about to face. Hidden with in the board policy. If you were recognized as self employed on December 31,2012 you are not recognized as such on January 01,2013 according to their new policy. Your accounts were all suspended and new ones were to be created. Now lets say in December you were subbing to a Kitchen Company and had the benefit of not being forced to pay premiums under the voluntary program. On January 2nd you continue to sub to that same company until such times as you do a job for another company, that company is responsible to pay you premiums.You only commence paying once you work for a second entity. This is just one example of what the WSIB will be looking for when they hit your office. It is also a prime example of the “board policy” extending more than is written in the act.
    The act itself dictates self employed workers are required to pay premiums to the WSIB there is no distinction made about the length of time one works for any company, on Monday you are self employed and Tuesday nothing has changed.
    As far as how much premiums are to be collected again the “board policy” dictates a misleading response. The act itself as well as the Unemployment Insurance scheme are almost identical. It is called the “net insured” income and that number is derived from your after tax income. This “net insured ” income is normally depicted on an hourly persons weekly pay stub which consist of the gross hourly wage less deductions, ie. taxes, wsib, uic, cpp etc… For self employed individuals it is found on your T1 general better known as our tax return. The number we arrive at after all possible deductions are realized which is the number by the way if you do file a claim WSIB will base you benefits on. This is the only time you will see reference to ” insured Income. Their policy again not realized with in the act itself. And here is the big kick they want you to pay on the gross. How is that?
    This bill as I eluded to in earlier comments is simply to steal the funds from business to pay down the unfunded liability, portions of the legislation probably would not even stand up under legal scrutiny, the board policy certainly would not.
    My personal opinion is simple what the MOL and WSIB have done is legalize (not legitimately) what they did to my business and so many others in their greedy endeavor to repair the mistakes they have made and the utterly gross mismanagement of the WSIB system itself.
    There is no repair to this wayward system but I would advise anyone to write their MPP and force them to move bill 17 forward which will at least allow us to protect ourselves privately as we have done so for many years.

    Sean

  8. Get rid of them (WSIB) Have the Ontario government pay for all the unfunded liability (10 plus billions) and bring in private insurers as they do in Europe. Simple solution and no more bureaucracy.

    • Ted that is kind of what bill 17 seeks to achieve but the political response is simply this. To pass a bill of such nature to allow a choice would do one of two things. 1 force wsib to conform and offer proper assistance for a reasonable cost to consumers ( doubtful) 2 by allowing choice destroy them. Answer 2 is the political issue. What party wants to be responsible for explaining to Ontario that there is a massive debt that will need to be passed on to Ontario tax payers. However they continue to put forward legislation to prop up this mismanaged organization without regard for who gets hurt in the process. Ask a politician what a persons life is worth. There in is the issue.

  9. I don’t know where some of you get your info from but I’m a sole proprietor who works for home owners most of the time and occasionally for other contractors.
    When I submit my quarterly remittances for subcontracting, the 9.1% is based on 1/4 of line 135 of my previous years tax return, which is my net personal income and not gross income, which by the way, is a better deal than paying for employees whose premiums are based on their gross. I have conferred with many agents at WSIB and they all agree. If you read the 8 page document on their website you should find it as well.

    • Jim,
      Good for you, you seem to be updated on the rules,and sounds like you have accepted them. However most people are not as informed and do request the information. The information they are being provided is from the WSIB itself, as a matter of fact I have aided a couple of contractors with the same issue depicted here. I had to explain to the WSIB employee what the legislation says. I also had to explain the difference between the yearly maximum as well as the minimum and how that number is derived. The WSIB simply wanted to charge the maximum. For one guy they also reclassified him as an electrician which would make a massive percentage increase in the premium base from his original classification as a data installer and this action had now been well documented through out their propaganda which also dictates payment on the gross base and the improper classification. To add to the misery and To a new fact, new start ups contractor seeking to register are being refused accounts until such times as they have completed jobs for more than one entity. So if you have received a wonderful experience with WSIB and would like to promote it kudos to you but the larger percentage of the population neither have nor will. If you like I can provide you with emails back and forth between myself the WSIB and the minister of labor about these issues .
      By the way just so you are well informed it took the Ontario ombudsmen intervene and to force those entities to respond to these questions. I must to be fair and tell you I have in consequence received partial response. Again if you have such a wonderful experience with WSIB you are a rarity.

      • Thanks for your response Sean. I’ve been following your journey, since listening to your interiew with Robt Koci. Just to be clear though, I wouldn’t call my experience with them wonderful. I just want to keep them away from my door. After 30+ yrs in the biz, I just want to try keep them away from my door. If one has a good accountant, line 135 can be a fairly small amount which translates into a very small premium. BTW, I consider it an honour to hear from someone whose been through the wringer with the morons at WSIB.

    • Jim,
      Thanks again for the support, you hit the nail on the head as I eluded to earlier. The ” net” income and “insured” income are one in the same. As you and I both point out to aid any possible victim that will fall at the hands of this so called “board policy” that dictates what they want not what is legislated. As this article and some of the comments point to the true situation faced by many contractors. The WSIB in their wondrous ways have formulated what they beleive those figures represent. And as in my case will enforce those illigitimate actions upon anyone who is not educated to the true facts. I have informed the Operations policy branch as well as the ministry of labor of these issues and others. To date they have only partially responded. Part of my questions were and this may come as a surprise. Union independent operators or at least a vast majority are either not aware they are obligated to register with the WSIB or have been informed they are not required. The fact of the matter is and as is legislated they are required to register. The unions beleive that the term “dependent” contractor. Negates the fact they are self employed. Which in fact is far from the truth. Both the MOL and OPB have confirmed I am correct. I forwarded that response to the association responsible for my industry ISCA and directly to Hugh Laird. As expected I have received no response but I felt it important to document the issue.
      All that being said the balance of my request dealt with the 18 month rule, the clarification of “insured” income, how it is derived. That portion has yet to receive a response. I beleive the reason is simple. They can not respond because that response would once again undermine the funding ability of the WSIB not to mention call into question the very board policy and I hate to add again the board policy wrongfully addressed the independant operator in my case and many others.
      Thanks again to yourself and this magazine for trying to explain the mess contractors are or will be actually in when these auditors come calling. In the GTA the media has lacked in their responsibility to inform trades of the truth. outside the GTA the majority of contractors are well informed

    • Hi Jim,
      I’m always willing to take advice from others who have more knowledge and experience. Your statement that your 9.1 % is paid on line 135 of previous years return is interesting and would be a much more realistic and reasonable than on my gross.
      All I have been told by numerous Ontario WSIB representatives is that have to pay 9.1% on my gross, The accountants that I have spoken to have interpreted the WSIB new policy that I pay on annual gross up to the maximum.
      Good information is far and few on this and every little bit helps.
      You are a sole proprietor with no employees?
      As far as you know this new bill hasn’t changed the way they calculate your insurable income?

      I for one have no problem paying a rate that’s based on what actually goes in my pocket instead of what it really cost to get it there, I would still prefer to have the right to choose my own insurance than use the one with a proven track record of incompetence.

      Also wouldn’t doubt, if written in some secret policy manual somewhere is for them to just charge us on gross until we figure it out. Maybe that’s what my MPP meant when he said “That doesn’t sound right”

      I have found the document you speak of 14-02-18 insurable earnings construction and to me it reads like you say.

      • Rob—can you share the link to this document??

      • Rob
        I am a sole proprietor with occasional employees, so I’m already have a WSIB account. I mostly work for homeowners, so I’m exempt from the Mandatory coverage most of the time. When I work for other contractors as a sub, I’m able to get a clearance certificate because my account is in good standing. When I do this, I submit my quarterly premium (line 135 divided by 4, times 9.1%) for the quarter in which I worked.
        I called 3 different times to confirm this before filing my return. The first time I was told I could base it on the labour part of the invoices I submitted to the contractor, which is ridiculous because it has overhead in it. The second & third call we talked about line 135 which they confirmed. I even asked if they meant line 150, but they said it’s 135. I guess I just lucked out and got a couple of agents who actually knew the ruling.

  10. Apparently Ontario government and their side agencies are turning into a racked of thieves under the color of law, its out of control.

    Remember next time elections takes place, don’t forget to vote, go it.
    If every body don’t show up for voting, they will get it.

    Should a bill be passed to fire incompetent politicians and make them pay for wrong doings? Do they really have any liability insurances to cover for bad deeds? What about WSIB just in case they slip on some stairs, worry about how to screw us with all this hidden tax.

    Should a provincial wide strike take place and demand all this liberal poppets out? The way of life in this Province is domed, to much greed is destructive.

    The billions dollars debt mac liar left someone have to pay. Also don’t forget a lot of CEOs and board of directors including WSIB want bonus on top what they already making in the creations of this insane boards. Apparently most of them occupy multi boards and masters of none. They found the way to collect the money for nothing, these parasites.

    Now how much bonus do you all get?

  11. We are a small company with two offices one in Alberta and one in British Columbia.

    Our plan out here is WCB we do the same thing in both provinces and our rates are different 4.6% in BC and 5.9% in Alberta and if we wish to cover the owner it goes to 12.1% in BC and 13.9 in Alberta so I cover the owner under a private company.

    But I am not sure why all the different rates for the same job in different areas.

    Also with no claims my rates keep going up.

  12. Sign the petition to fix the WSIB.

    http://www.randyhilliermpp.com/fix_the_wsib

  13. I’m in exactly the same boat.

    For the past 2 1/2 years I’ve operated a one man handyman business. Last year I took on a cooperative housing development as a client. I’m basically a 50 year old guy that enters a unit, tightens the screws on cabinet door hinges, replaces drawer slides and guides and the occasional painting. I have a registered business and private insurance.

    Thinking that the work I was doing was exempt from construction classification I didn’t pay as much attention as I should have to the new bill.

    Was I ever shocked when I contacted WSIB in January and was informed that not only did I have to pay a Soprano-like percentage of 9.1% on my gross receipts and that I owed them retroactively for the past year (because we all have 10% of our gross sitting in the bank from last year) but that I would also have to pay the same rate on the small side business I have repairing pinball machines….all because some office worker has determined that what I do is somehow related to the construction industry.

    Biting the bullet, I paid the amount owing and figured that would be the end of it. Not surprisingly, within a 2 week period I received a poster to put up in my shop along with a letter stating that by law I had to post it and an invoice for interest owing on the amount from last year.

    When I called to question the interest I was informed that “just like Visa and Mastercard, WSIB charges interest on late payments.”

    Seriously??? WSIB feels it can lump itself in with credit card companies?

    At least from a credit card I am benefiting from a loan and a service and I have the option to not use it when I can’t afford it. What has WSIB done for me lately besides shake me down for the small change in my pockets?

    As for the poster, I feel that the demand that I post it in a one-man shop is ludicrous. It feels very much like being shaken down by a bully in public school for my milk money and then having him force me to put up his class picture in my locker.

    Something needs to be done about these jokers, before they put everyone out of business.

    • Steve,
      I was quoted that rate (handyman) but haven’t been able to find it in the rate chart, for apt/condo maintenance looks like it should be around 3.5%
      For me doing a few coffee shops (restaurant) should be around the same, are these people just pulling these rates out of their ass?

      • Rob,
        I have been in contact with the wsib staff a number of times about this issue for a couple of different reasons in the last few months and in fact this particular reason of classification. The third or forth time nor sure which I made certain they knew who I am and confined that with the lady. She one refused to be put on speakerphone although the vast majority if their calls are monitored or recorded. I am willing to bet the balance of her conversation was not.
        She as you can quite imagine are confused and are now more or less disgruntled which is why you are being told what premium rate you should be charged because they are being told what to tell you. The inside operations is as I have said once or twice in these comments told to collect what they can. If 9 out of 10 accept so be it. Second if it is for a new entity they are immediately refused an account.
        She says she knows the difference but are doing what they are told. Their actions are as she said in the hopes someone will act to straighten out the hell they to live in. That is the new reality wsib us so desperate to lower the unfunded liability they are willing to do what ever it takes without regard for any law.
        Sad but true the wsib may contest this conversation happened but if pressed I can prove the date and time.

    • Tell them where to stick their poster and interest charges.

  14. What needs to be done is continue to help this magazine to engage all contractors through forums just like this in the hopes we can all garner the attention of major media outlets. We also all need to contact our local mpps open the discussion, their is a smell of election in the air. We need to make it clear to every mpp or those who are going to run that those who support this nazis regime will not have our support.
    We have put the pressure on minister Nagvi and what we received in response is disgusting to say the least. Unofficially of coarse they realize the mistake however to save face will not correct the error. Bill 17 has sat on the floor since February 2013 with no motion what so ever. These politicians who tote their position in the media are mute in the legislature.
    The same year bill 119 was introduced there was also another of more importance and clearly shows a politicians intent. The bill was bill 114 about the age of a passenger on a motorcycle. The bill itself was not what I found important it was the mpp who introduced it and her comments were. When asked by the media the reason behind her introduction of the bill, was it something that happened to her personally or was their a call from her constituants that caused her to be so concerned. The answer even shocked the reporter as well as summed up our politicians and their actions. ” I was told by the party to choose something so I chose this.”
    This is our new system of politics and the only way we can change this is by numbers, Twitter,Facebook,LinkedIn, media like this friends like Robert and steve and continue to push our agenda.

  15. This mandatory coverage idea has been around since 2010. Thanks to this magazine & The CFIB and maybe a few politicians, it was deferred from enactment until 2012. Once the news slowly got out to the people it affected (i.e. the 1-2 man operations) some grass roots groups managed to have it deferred again until Jan. 2013. By far, the bulk of the blame has been put on the WSIB and its employees, but a very large chunk should go to workers who milk the system with bogus claims and extended lost time.
    Don’t get me wrong, I’m not supporting WSIB’s mismanagement, it’s just that I never have heard anyone blame the milkers throughout this whole messed up situation.
    Like I’ve said in previous posts, if everyone who works in the construction industry had to pay their own premiums and was not allowed to work without proof of insurance, there would be fewer injuries, less & lower claims and lower premiums.

  16. Jim Groves-
    I totally agree with you about bogus claims and extended renumeration for those who were not truly injured or who’s injuries got better a long time ago. It has hurt those who are legitimately injured during a work day. I know of a few people who are milking the system and I know they have been reported on but they were still drawing…
    There appears to be no investigations into some older claims and this is affecting the new claims.
    All this new Bill does is drive unlicensed construction workers deeper underground where they can do work under the radar for a lower buck. while we, honest, constructors have to continually raise our prices to meet the demands of additional charges doled out upon us by government and Agencies.
    Wake up WSIB and Government and see what you are truly doing to our economy and its workers.
    why not look into the private handymen and women who are running non-registered businesses and are cutting into our hard earned and registered incomes.
    Ever wonder why the person down the street, who does not work, has a better car and house than you.!! I do.

    • Jim/Yvette, you are both correct yet I would point out that private sector insurance very rarely allows this form of fraud to go unchecked, I would agree the WSIB should and does have the same tools and have used them to catch a few unsavoury characters. We all know of people who are milking the system.
      In the early 90s there was a massive increase in injurie claims filed with the WSIB due to a massive down turn in the economy . A lot of these claims were supported by the medical system and some very well paid physicians. Some were caught yet others slipped through the cracks. That being said I have read and heard comments of this type of behaviour going unchecked for years. This is once again due to one department at the WSIB not knowing what the other was doing. Billions have been wasted. One thing we all learn and coincides with Yvette’s comment. These people just like those who abuse the social services system or those who are truly the underground economy will continue to milk the system. Our issue now is borderline contractors in order to survive are now forced underground looking for loopholes to survive. Frankly who would blame them.
      There are so many issues in the WSIB system from legitimate injured workers being denied coverage to companies who comply extorted by higher premiums and surcharges when an injury occurs. Thousands of injured workes forced by their companies to sit in offices on light duties with no claim recorded. Charging independents to pay premiums on their gross instead if their net only to pay out on their net in event of an injury.Also looking at manufacturing companies that really don’t need to stay in Ontario and for this and other government taxation find cheaper places to work. The list is endless of the mistakes and mismanagement which forces people to break the law in order to stay out of the very system created to help which simply put is now bent with a more destructive need to survive by what ever means available.

  17. Thanks to all, the blog is getting interesting. People seems to be aware the cons and pros of the WSIB and the crappy system they create with the blessing of some MMPs.

    I do agree with most of you in a lot of issues, some expressed this system as like the Nazis, fair from it. Clarify that for those maybe are confused.

    The Nazi in Germany was turn into a social system, from the cesspit Berlim capital of prostitution, drugs, homos, les, and anything goes, you know, on the 1920. All source of taxation was imposed, inflation was to the roof and no one could do a decent leaving. That was the left over from the first world war, done by corrupted bankers. Do you know who they are?

    Its getting close to the same shit here now with taxation, all shapes and forms, and sideways agencies which kills all the economic system and the way of life.
    We are experience apparently some flavour of the 1920, with different rats in the flour bag.

    The problem with some politicians is: they want votes from the public to go in, wants there, the lobbyists got hands on them, to change the laws on their favors.
    No lobbyists any kind around any public servants, should be made law.
    This is my opinion, to curb down a lot of fraud.

    If anyone runs for politician should be able to understand what the needs of the people are, either to change laws, amended, or new ones for betterment of mankind, with out any interference from lobbyists groups. In special from the crook bankers.

    Each politician should be in contact with their constituents in a large scale, not just any one caprice, this happen to me I want this law.

    Now if all of you pay close attention what is going on, at the Queens Park you can see clear. Its a patronage into itself.

    CEOs of a parasitic agencies and board of directors became like Gods, is a different world for them. Until all the trades people and all workers, get together and demand all of them out.

    All parasite agencies out, WSIB and others from the top down, paid by the hour rate, no bonus any kind, if serve in one agency, got do 8 hours, no much time for another side agency.

    A lot of these crooks are wasting millions of dollars set in multi boards and not doing any work.

    Don’t forget the bonus they receive are sometimes way more then they make. Some of these crooks are in the rage between 200k to 470k a year, plus bonus. Its meat for one class and bones for the other. This have to stop, the politicians should be worn if they don’t fix this mess, should be zero votes for all of them, when election comes.

    The day of voting should be a province wide strike, that will stir up the wind.

    The system appear to be a feudalism, not democratic nor a Nazi, The interesting part was under the Nazis everyone have work, and Germany went in a short amount of time to the highest economy in Europe, where all the advances, in health, sciences, technology, transport, land, sea and air, and manufacture and so on, to the point of jealousy which trigger the world war II.

    There is no mystery, if you could find the culprits of the pass you will be able to detect the ones pulling the strings, the fraudulent bankers and their minions.

    Until this parasitic system isn’t clean the mess will continue. The more they offer to the politicians with their cronies in all fronts the worse this shit will get.

    You don’t need to believe me, check on Honorable ex PM Paul Hellyer, he is explaining the issue about the fraudulent economy in detail, just go on line a search for it. If Canada didn’t fall for this stupidity it could be like paradise in any part of the country. No Income tax, no property tax, no direct tax any form, only a small consumers tax, to maintain the country expenses, work for every body and a lot of exports will hold the balance.

    Now these crooks are driving people nuts, they know ground economy will take place. And that’s what they want to fine people to their destruction.

    A wake up call should be a priority, to demand these crooks out what a liberalism? way far from what real liberal is. Governments centers have been high jacked.

    With all regards to all of you.

  18. Come on people, we can discuss this to death or we can make a stand.
    Whens the next protest ?
    We need at least 1000 people

    But someone please find out the rate group on mass construction related protests .

  19. Hey Rob, call your MPP in your area, or call the queens park, advise them, there is a possibility of a protest or a strike on the wings, about WSIB and others.
    The more calls the better, you may notice the panic. They may ask what is all about, is about the incompetency of this liberal government, the abusive ways of the public money.

    I called the MPP in my area, a lot of times, no response any kind, the NDP are in the same boat as the Liberals, they don’t give a shit. Apparently shows, they don’t care.

    A thousand people isn’t enough, the unions could be contacted, in special the LIUNA, lets see what they have to say, maybe a good idea.

    Another way is where ever the premier goes, the media should be asking when they will fix all the wrongs they have done in this province. Asking her how you will deal with protests on WSIB and others, how you will deal with a province wide strike, if that arises. Would you premier force hem back to work?
    After all they always respect the collective agreements didn’t they?.

    The budget is coming, and most likely will not pass, if does, then the NDP will finish themselves up. Then the best opportunity arises.

    We will invest more money bla, bla bla, don’t worry you will pay with all this side agencies and all this crook CEOs and board of directors and much more.
    Don’t forget to vote for us, I wanna be the real premier of this province.
    If that happens then we all be in a hell pace. The real premier quits, should be 90 days maxim, elections, not this carry on bullshit, This kind of a drag is insane.

    Its 16 plus billion on a hole, and this budget is money bored, from the fiat money,
    the corrupted bankers, with interest on it.

    These Liberals are a disaster, the minister of MTCU now, was the one deleted all the emails about the gas plant scandal, when ask any question on the question period, he always answer in diversion. He should be fired with no pay whatsoever, but instead he his there to protect the patronage of the OCOT, like all the others, is a patronage of thieves.

  20. I have received from operations policy branch of the WSIB exactly what us used to determine insured income. Jim is correct . In the letter I received it details a couple of other items if interest. Anyone who would like a copy if that ruling my email address is posted in the http://www.wsibdefence.ca include in the subject line insurable earnings and I will forward you a copy

  21. Thanks Sean for the link. The language in this link is amazing. http://www.wsibdefence.ca

    where is the presumption of guilt? Or in other words, innocent until proven guilty,
    and most of the laws from queens park legislation are in this rhetoric.

    Its a direct guilty no mater what, this language is frightening and intimidating.
    it clear showns no room for arguing about any relevant issues. This is the kind of language our governments are creating and have created for us on our cost.

    In accordance with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms this language have no place to be. All of us are presumed innocent before proven guilty.

    The BNA act, the human rights code, the UN Charter and world wide human rights code, sign by Canada. This language does not fit in our world today.

    Should we all, make all the politicians guilty of an offence, by abuse of public money?. Should this language be applied to them?

  22. Hi I don’t know about you but you have lots of time writing those long story
    If they think they are smart just be smarter
    Open 2 company’s commercial and residential
    The problem is everyone want to have big house and toys
    Welcome to self employed
    Work hard and be honest but not stupid
    Look at the end of the day what you have and if you are not happy you are doing something wrong or your just stupid and should go work in factory
    Self employed is a bitch but it is freedom

  23. Hi jean, You think you have freedom, really, let me tell you something.

    I had business for very long time, and I was very honest hard worker and successful and still. To the point to close down everything bc to many people sucking our hard money. You don’t seems to understand what freedom looks like.

    I was audit by the CRA one time on their own mistake, took four years to be solved. In the mean time treats every once a wile, they want me to sale my house to pay them, and they didn’t give a shit about my business and my family, got body. WSIB can do the same shit, its guilty before proven guilty.

    I never give up and won the case on thousands of compound dollar against my company, alone. I only hope this never happen to you and have as many companies you whish to have, I wish you good luck. Just make sure you never get caught up on the winds of WSIB, CRA machinations, and others

    Just make sure one day you will understand the laws to serve and protect you will not turn into a tool to enslave you to the point of destroying everything you have constructed for your betterment.

    Regarding big houses and big toys and can’t afford them that’s reality for many, not for me at all.

    Time spending on the blog that’s my offer to people wish to look into things they should be aware, I don’t spend time in bars nor my money.

    Self employed is great and can even be grater if you get paid in time and free from a lot of unwanted bullshit.

    Good luck

  24. Sorry stop working look like you don’t have a name
    I been in business for 30 years been full audit 3 times cra don’t care about anyone they just doing the’re job but if you communicate well with any body problem well be solved
    Self employed is not for everyone

  25. Jean, some tips for you, if you wish to look at it.

    a) Admiralty law ( military law, martial law )

    b) The common law

    c) The law of contracts

    b) person, persons, personage. ( these are factitious identities )

    d) human names on all capital case letters and only the first letter in capital ( The difference )

    Apparently human beings aren’t persons, nor should be their names all in capital letters. Most likely we all are cattle on the stock market for a price tag.

    Human race can be called, human beings or people.

    These subjects are very interesting for those who seek to find it

    Hope this help you a lot.

  26. I have a pressure washing business. I’m a sole proprietor, no employees. When I found out about WSIB I contacted them to register, I thought I had to at the time. There is no category for pressure washing. So brilliant as they are, they tucked in into forms and demolish ion under water blasting. For those of you that don’t know about this, a water blaster is a 40000 PSI(yes 40000) machine which is used to remove concrete form a road surface or bridge surface so they don’t ruin the underlying rebar. My machine is 3500 PSI and I wash houses, cars, trucks, sidewalks and racks in a grocery store. Can you picture me doing that work with 40000 psi, no me either. So I get to pay 18.3% to be in this category but when I complained they gave me a second category of janitorial which is 3%. So I asked why the differance, because the grocery store is a weekly job so it is a contract under janitorial. Me cleaning your house or truck is not considered janitorial because it is one time. Not a on going contract. So far I haven’t been able to change this rate but I am convinced that it should be lower then this.

    • Rob,
      As we have all noted earlier in these comments there can certainly be a line drawn to the conclusion the the WSIB is doing what ever it wants. As I mentioned about the security installer they did the same to him as well until I intervened and got to the right person. As a second note for the 4th time in many weeks I have been contacted by companies that the WSIB will not even allow to register simply because they are new Companies. I will point out the law across Canada states that you have 10 days to “register” with the WSIB. In their wisdom they are in some cases in Ontario refusing the registration until you have proven your work and you have worked for more than one entity.
      Now here is a good one, if you come to me as a contractor I can not hire you unless you provide me with your WSIB number and prove you are in good standing. Now is that not genius. I contacted the OPB and minister of labor about one of these companies. The response was simple yet disgusting. They responded with ” because I was not noted as a representative of the company they could not address the issue with me. However they would address the issue directly with the company in question.” Satisfied, nope they turned him down again and told him he needed to work for two different companies before they would grant him an account. He lost the Job.

  27. Should the WSIB be guilty of an offence? No room for arguments no proven mistaken no proven innocent, no LOL.

    Should the penalty be 25 thousand dollars paid to those lost the job and contracts on WSIB refusing? Now I can see the lawsuits start to fly.

    THE HOT POTATONS THE LIBRALS COOKED SHOULD BE SENT IT TO THE QUEENS PARK.

    They should be made to apologise for all the mess they did, fix it, and quit.

  28. I just heard the College of Trades is making carpenters a mandatory licensed trade, it will get everything, cabinet makers, forms, trim work , hardwood floors , deck builders , etc.

    When will the madness end?

    • As was mentioned months ago this organization was already running a deficit and we all said those trade that were not included in the legislation and were only included on a voluntary basis, would eventually be forced into the system. This happened once before by another “arms length” entity of the Government. Until 2013 independent operators in construction when it came to paying premiums was also “voluntary” until as we know with bill 119 became mandatory.
      Again pointing to a government legislated crown or private entity so poorly mismanaged that they would rather create legislation to protect them rather than what should be done. Here in lies our Ontario Government . A government who combined with the NDP seek only to protect their cronies, the public Sector unions and the teachers. The rest of us are saddled with the ever growing taxation which will eventually destroy, as it has manufacturing, every other private sector business in the Province.
      Look ant the Ministry of Labor Portfolio and what we pay for as just one example. The Ministry itself, Office of the employer adviser, Office of the worker adviser,The Ontario Fairness commission, WSIB and its many divisions and now add in the College of trades. One only need do the math, rather than get to the core of the issue the create more problems. The next will be an oversight committee to investigate why this is all failing.
      Here is a new one to ponder, “prompt payment” legislation and this will shock you as well. The legislation is designed to finally afford trades and suppliers some form of protection we lost over the years. Setting guidelines on how we get paid and ensure we do get paid. For the first time in a long time trade unions have backed business and agreed to support this legislation a great revelation. Here is the shocker, municipal councilors as well as a teachers association just announced they don’t like the legislation and are against it. That blows my mind but brings me back to one conclusion.
      The Government has long considered us as trades people brain dead Neanderthals a group where they can take any advantage when ever they can and they have been so far successful, it seems teachers and councilors see us in the same in the same light. If there was ever a time we need to stand up its now. The problem here as I mentioned before we have no cohesive tool to use. The last rally at Queens Park yielded a couple of hundred trades which I will point out included mostly trades from outside the GTA and did not include many from Toronto or the surrounding area. The question is why. The answer presented itself on that cold day in February. The GTA media simply chose to ignore us and concentrated on the strife of teachers inside the legislature.
      There was more media coverage from Ottawa, Hamilton, London etc… and as far away as Quebec, a 10 second blurb on CP24, 680 and none from CFTO . All stations that have a major advertising client, the Ontario Government. So what does that tell you. These stories we discuss in magazines such as this are left alone. No sun, no star and no globe, does that not seem strange.
      Lets all cancel our subscriptions to these entities, advertising only work if people buy these papers.

  29. Hi Rob, Now the OCOT are asking for their demise, apparently they are in debt.
    How big is the hole? holy shit went down couple miles LOL.

    Can you send your man interviewing them on camera, would be nice.
    Just make sure your camera is protected against their lies, may affect the inner electronics LOL.

    Pressure at the OCOT CEO Tsubounci a 500 call a day to the OCOT for him to quit, then the boat will lose the commandant. Then the boat will be a adrift at the mercy of the waves.

    I believe the refusing to pay this insane bullshit are in very high right now. They are in agony to save themselves.

    To the MTCU minister, should calls be made and never stop until is out, forced out. The premier should be ask to quit, but she wouldn’t until the bud-get , get it.

    I can see now the bright bright sun shiny day,,,,,,,,

    Its time for all of us trades, workers all kinds, to stop working and march to the Queens park and demand these crooks out, and not leave until they are out of site. The OCOT scandal is about to happen, will be the end of some NDPs and the completely demise for the liberals. calls on 740 am announcing the mach.
    Calls to the unionised people to participate, this shit is affecting everyone.

    The m, f,,,,, on the OCOT was saying on video the none compulsory trades will not be forced in, unless is voluntary, now wants compulsory?

    Should be ask to leave in the next few days.

    I would like to see all of these f,,,, in jail if found guilty.

  30. To all trades people in the Province of Ontario.

    Our certification of qualification was sold on average $9.60 to the OCOT.
    This in the provincial tax. And $ 6.00 to the CRA, fed tax ( now called HST)
    We were turned into commodity like slaves, for a price tag.

    All the materials, shops, transport, tools, cloths, fees, permits, etc, we all need to perform our work already have tax on it. But don’t forget, WSIB, other insurances and other expenses, bills, gasoline/ diesel, and income tax, etc.

    Now lets look at this:

    Its around 150,000.00 compulsory trades people in this Province,
    The MTCU was collecting every three years about $60.00 each.

    a) 150.000.00 times 60 divide by 3 = 3.000.000.00 a year average.

    b) certification sold to OCOT without our consent, for $15.60 each. (HST)
    don’t forget they also have a loan of 5 million of our tax to disbarred the slaves.

    c) now 150.000.00 ( base on $120.00) on 8% provincial tax, 1.440.000 a year,
    3.000.000.00 minus 1.440.000.00 = 1.560.000.00 lost, per year.

    The minister of MCTU should be fired immediately without pay for falling to look into these matters.

    Not bad for selling us compulsory trades people, are you mad?

    d) 150.000.00 ( Based $120.00 ) times 5% = $ 6.00 GST, now the OCOT
    have a lot of new staff to deduct towards CRA, most likely they will pay pennies
    on GST.

    Certification can be qualified intellectual property, now where is my royalty?
    Without the intellect of those which passed the exam, will not be possible to be certified.

    This assuming everyone pays, and their are apprentices paying $60 per year and other trades also paying $60, at this point is unknown how many companies are paying to the OCOT.

    150.000.00 times $120.00 = 18.000.000.00 million minus 5.000.000.00 = 13.000.000.00 million profit in one year, divided by 12 = 1.083.333.33 per mouth.
    if divide per 4 = 270.833.00 a week. no expenses added yet.

    150.000.00 times $15.60 = 2.430.000.00 tax what a great deal isn’t it?

    Now the OCOT have already 20 goons on the job site making average 70.000 per year, =1.400.000.00 dived by 12 = 116.666.66 dived by 4 = 29.166.66 week.

    now 270.833.00 minus 29.166.66 = 241.666.34. per week

    Here is the interesting part, the OCOT are training another 15 goons = 21.874.99 per week no expenses added yet. They have a lot of new cars either lease or bought has to be paid, they are paying the most expensive building in Toronto, also where is the money to pay the board of directors and the CEO.

    241.666.34 minus 21.874,99 = 219791.35 cash flow without expenses
    Assuming 20 cars Max, lease and gas 450 each times 20 = 9.000.00 week
    maybe way more.

    241.666.34 minus 9.000.00 = 232.666.34 now if the board D and CEO get more then 1.500.000.00 a year The OCOT its domed.

    This isn’t accurate based if everyone pays, maybe more then 25% aren’t paying moving out of the province, and more are retiring

    Not bad to try to f,,,, all of us compulsory trades, can’t you see why they want every body on board.

    We can sink this boat in a matter of hours.

  31. Appeal to all compulsory trades people, and voluntaries also.

    Have you notice, in special those received the OCOT envelops of renewal, what is in read color letter?

    ” IMPORTANT” – TRADE LICENSE RENEWAL

    Now if you received the second envelop, in black color,

    FINAL REMEMBER- MEMBERSHIP/TRADE LICENSE RENEWAL

    Now here is the real important issue: Now the mail delivery knows where and who is a trades man/woman. Isn’t this interesting?

    Specific info what is in the envelop, right at the front of the envelop. Now all of us may know where this can lead into. Now the mail service she/he even knows about your affairs status towards the OCOT. Now we may have more enemies,,,,, more snitchers in our front doors.

    The mail service he/she, may use the envelops name, check any ones status.
    And may sale it, for a price, to those of third parties friends and so on.

    Now how many bogus clams will arise? There is a possibility for loop holes here.

    Its a label, and describing content, It can be argued under the discriminatory and protected info act, privacy act, on the Canadian Charter of Rights and freedoms, discreet label, and describing content, is unlawful; because opens the doors for criminal activity.

    Have you received a such a thing before related to any of your certifications of career?. Someone was told to wait for the second envelop,,,,,,.

    Wake up trades people its time, I am doing my part in every direction I can, I have been in contact with may MPPs from the PC on this mater and others. And thanks to H, MPP Garfield Dunlop and others, in paying close attention to my letters and all the others. Expressing all the concerns in this matter of the OCOT.

    Some NDPs were contacted but never even bought to look at it.

    There is no difficulty the strong intellect cannot surmount.

    The whole secret of existence is to have no fear.

    Please pass this info on, to those would love to be informed.

  32. how long befor they wsib is charge to shop owners or the ceo of chrysler etc . They wont do that because the revolt would be crazy How about they chagre citys am,yors etc for the county incomes

  33. would it be legal to put the wsib cost of job wright on the bill so the customers can see it and start complaining to there MPs
    Mayby if this was wright out there on the public eyes mayby something would happen to change this stupid act

    • Robert Koci

      I like your thinking.

    • DITTO, since new invoices have to be generated soon, I think this may just be included………….. I think we ALL should consider tis

  34. Why not? The costumer will pay one way or another, what the difference makes, if added to the invoices. This makes even better for the costumers to be aware what they pay, total before tax, WSIB, HST bang. But better be checked with an accounting experts, to avoid problems later. And further more will the costumers
    be able to claim the WSIB toward CRA.? I believe they should.

    Latest news, Law suite against the Liberal government, on the slot machines demise at the horse tracks, tag price 65 million.

    Now how many more will come? Maybe they knew this was about to happen, then f,,,,, everybody with WSIB and the OCOT bullshit. LOL.

  35. It’s a definite mistake to register with WSIB..

  36. It’s a BIG mistake to REGISTER with WSIB. When I registered my 1 man contractor company in IT, they called me so many times to register with them. I ignored to reply to them all the time.They threatened me and I still ignored them. Finally they gave up after few dozen calls. I’m not paying nothing to them.

    • Absolutely correct. Tell Wynne and her fellow thieves to pound salt.

      • Robert Koci

        I always wondered where the saying “pound salt” comes from. Do you know?

  37. I think it is from the early 20th century salt mines in the US. The lowest job in the mines was literally pounding large chunks of salt in to smaller pieces, and that job was usually given to the less experienced workers with the least seniority.

  38. I so hear ya! I also made the mistake of trying to do everything above board and am now in the cross hairs of the WSIB! I do not have “employees” as doing so would mean that I would have to pay X dollars; so, I subcontract and let them worry about it.

    WSIB was a good idea but like most bureaucracies they just run rampant and trample us little guys.

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