Canadian Contractor

Ontario College of Trades puts compulsory certification of carpenters and drywallers on hold

IF OCOT had proceeded to force the compulsory certification of anyone doing carpentry and drywalling in the province, tens of thousands of contractors would be thrown into the underground or face fines

April 24, 2014
By Steve Payne
Steve Payne

TORONTO (April 25, 2014) – An anonymous source within the boardrooms at the Ontario College of Trades told Canadian Contractor yesterday that OCOT”s plans to force certification of carpenters and drywallers is “on hold until some time next year.”

Two weeks ago, Ontario PC leader Tim Hudak, accompanied by his Skilled Trades and Apprenticeship critic MPP Garfield Dunlop, a licensed plumber, held a press conference in which they vowed that their party if elected would seek to abolish the OCOT.

Late last night, Dunlop told Canadian Contractor: “The thought of ever making the trades of carpentry and drywalling compulsory certified trades is a step backward for the Ontario construction industry. Tens of thousands of jobs would be lost and the industry would be crippled.  I believe the decision to halt the process is strictly political because of the potential spring election. This ill-conceived idea should be abolished once and for all as we believe should the whole OCOT.”

Our OCOT source says that  “all requested trade classification reviews not already underway” are on hold. This would include, in addition to “General Carpenter and Drywall,” “Power Line Technician” and “Acoustic and Lathing Applicator.”


“The reasons for this,” our source continued, “include: unavailability of qualified Ontario Labour Relations Board person to undertake the review, and questions surrounding the process raised through the Sprinkler Fitter review.  Based on conversations to date it would appear things are on hold until sometime next year at the earliest. The Construction Millwright review had started so presently I am unsure if this process will be continued.”


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56 Comments » for Ontario College of Trades puts compulsory certification of carpenters and drywallers on hold
  1. Bob2 says:

    I guess wynny and her cohorts are getting quite hot under the collar, they already upset quite a few people in this province so they are treading lightly to try and not ruffle anymore feathers, hopefully the damage has been done so she and her band of thieves could ride off into the sunset and never to be seen again after next election.

  2. Brilliant… and our CARAHS members will be pleased, after their large banner and air horn protest outside Queens Park recently that hit the TV news that day.

    The Stop the Trade Tax, MPP Garfield Dunlop , the Canadian Contractor magazine and other made this happen. We hope this news is confirmed and we can retire our banner.

    Alec Caldwell
    CARAHS Founder

  3. RS says:

    Kind of surprised that the industry
    Doesn’t welcome Carpenters & Drywallers
    Having to been properly trained & certified

    For years everyone has complained about
    Fly by night trades people. The $125 to join
    An organization is tax deductible.

    However tradesmen who aren’t certified
    Should be given tax incentives and it should
    Be setup as a apprenticeship program with
    A reasonable time frame to obtain the license

    Just my thoughts as a person who worked
    In the trades for 25 years and seen to many
    Untrained or skilled people wrecking peoples

    • bert says:


      Please inform me what OCOT does for training me, a self employed trades person, besides policing on me?

      My guess is that the $125 is just a start… but we will see in a few years
      (hopefully OCOT is gone by then). Their overhead costs are way to high, as for WSIB, with too many overpaid employees leaching off hard working people.

      just my $ 0.02

    • Robert Koci says:

      Thank for your comment. If you’ve been in the trades that long, you also know there are thousands upon thousands of guys doing an excellent job without benefit of certification. You also know that certified trades can be horrible. I have been in this industry, first as a boat builder, then framer, then renovator and now publisher for close to 40 years. Mostly, I have seen non-certified work the equal or better than, certified work at a more competitive cost. The College will do nothing to change that, except that it will make certified trades more expensive, the unions stronger and good, non-compliant guys criminals. It will certainly grow the underground economy and widen the distance between it and the legitimate economy.

    • dave says:

      There is a difference in our trade we are supposed to be inspected and get permits.
      I think there is a misconception that all licensed trades are overwhelming perfect at his or her job . they are human they can do a bad job too . in most cases the terrible jobs don’t have permits pulled or inspected either. And that a licensed trades person won’t work for cash. Again they are human and if you can save paying taxes wouldn’t you. Im sure you go to your favourite mechanic and he does a little job and says give me 20. bucks and you whip out some cash. so you end up helping the underground economy we are all guilty then. This will only make more people mad and want to have work done for cash. If only to screw the greedy government. Its not like they were spending our money wisely, wasted trips expensive hotels etc.

  4. Tom says:

    Anyone else seeing the link between this and the gas plants? The liberals slamming on the brakes on something that may affect their election? I am a firm believer that the OCT is just another way the government plans to nickel and dime the middle class to death. When the OCT was brought to my attention, it promised increased safety and regulations, but what did we actually get? Nothing. An exorbitant fee and threats of loosing our licence if we do not comply with this new association.

  5. Hi Mike ….Good comment and you are right. They have dropped this hot potato till after election time, as they know it could sink their ship.

    In the meantime WE NEED TO SINK this Liberal ship at election time, if we don’t THEY will Do what they say after election
    So PLEASE , where self employed contractor, employee, sub trade or trades person out there, please vote PC this time and get this bunch out. I prefer the NDP myself, but they cannot stop this, only a PC government can do this for us all.

    So get the message out to everyone. It is not over yet and tell others its a PC government in Ontario who’ll stop the Ontario College of Trades


    Alec Caldwell
    CARAHS (Canadian Association of Renovators And Home Services)
    Help line for questions on WSIB, MOL, customer issues and more
    Toll free 1 866 366 2939

  6. Doug Leitch says:

    @bert I would like to respond to your comment about the OCOT policing you. The OCOT does not have the mandate to even do that because they have no power. The only thing the OCOT can do is to act on a complaint against a member of the College, so no compliant no investigation.
    The Act states the follow: To receive and investigate a compliant against a member of the College!

    So once again no complaint filed then there is no investigation. I also want to mention to you and everyone else that the Ontario College of Trades in not a government body but only a non profit organization which means that the OCOT officers are not Provincial Offence Officers.
    The OCOT officers have no Provincial power at all because they are not a Provincial Governemnt body.

    If the OCOT officers do not or can not produce a comply of the written compliant against you if you are a member of the OCOT, then you are in your legal rights to not have to show them anything and ask them to leave. You can then proceed to call the police to have them charged with harassment because that in my opinion is the only reason they are there. Please remember to inform the OCOT officers that you will have your lawyer to be in touch with them to review the so alleged compliant against you.

    Now please also remember it is the trades person that hold the valid Certicate of Qualification which is now a forced membership with the College and it is not your business that is the member, so the compliant is against you and not your business. The College does not have the right to be going to these dealerships which more than likely are not members and forcing their way in to see if the trades people are licensed at all becuase that is not in the act.

    The Ontario College of Trades can say what they want or can think they can do what they want but the act is the law and they must follow the act.

    • Jim Grives says:

      Doug, although the OCOT and the WSIB are technically non government/not for profit organizations, they are at arms length from the provincial government. That is why so many of their respective employees are on the sunhine list.
      By the way, if you’re trying to organize another “Stop the Trades Tax” protest at Queen’s Park, I’d be willing to take the day off to attend, if the numbers were there.

    • Jim Groves says:

      Just for clarity, although OCOT and WSIB operate at arms length from the provincial government, they are still feeding at the public trough. Check out the Sunshine List. The numbers are stunning, especially the WSIB. Does that male them a government agency? You can be the judge of that.

  7. Mark Gibbesh says:

    Yeah its on hold until after the next provincial election. This a purely strategic move. If the liberals are reelected the hold wiill be cancelled and it will be full steam ahead.

  8. dave says:

    What i would like to know is how will it better the non licensed trades person. By getting his or her license? I have never had a customer ask if I had one or not . So why should i get one ?

    • Linda says:

      Because my husband is a licensed gold seal carpenter and people like you are doing handyman work for probably half the price, it probably won’t benefit you but it will benefit all the licensed carpenters and just maybe they would be paid what they should be. Plumbers and electricians must be licensed, and are paid well. Companies and individuals should only be allowed to hire licensed carpenters that obtain permits for the work they are doing. Most people don’t want carpenters to be licensed because they would have to pay them accordingly. I see jobs advertised looking for licensed carpenters, hourly wage $15-$20 an hour. Seriously. Is that what licensed plumbers and electricians are paid an hour. The answer is NO

  9. Mark says:

    Some of the worst workers I have ever had the displeasure of working with were fully licenced, union electricians. The mantra “nothing done before 1, and nothing new after 2” is how they conducted themselves while working at the OPP station in Orillia. How does a membership in the OCOT prevent this? These men and (1) woman were so dysfunctional that they caused the job to drag on 4 months over the schedule, and bankrupted the contractor that hired them.whether its a big job, or at someones house changing a light bulb, laziness, greed, and corruption are human traits. No amount of legislation or inspectors can change it. If the public continues to put “lowest cost” and “best deal” ahead of “most qualified” or “licenced”, when it comes to construction and renovation projects, then the Walmarts of the contracting industry will thrive, and the diligent tradesmen will starve.

    • Robert Koci says:

      Mark: I think you’ll like the editorial I wrote for the next issue. Make sure you check it out. Thanks for your comment.

    • Edward says:

      Well unions for most part have always enabled lazy $&@?’s. That is not breaking news for sure. Likewise, I have seen many lazy $&@?’s working for non-unionizing companies. We can all point finger’s at unionized guys, but there are many in non-unionized environment that do same. If they can turn a 2 month project to 4. They gauranteed work for 4. Wasted money really… In union pink slips are hard to give out… Which is something that should change. Mind you, im sure many would say the same for the opp…..

  10. David says:

    Its about time trades people were certified and licenced.
    although I disagree with most government programs, this one is magnificient.
    Okay all you negatives give a reason why you should not attend trade school and be certified….and what hourly rate do you desire working beside me and who has a red seal.
    Lets get this correct, I have at least 3000 hours of class time in my related trade and how many do you have.
    In trade school, I was taught thing in regard to installing, it was all theory. The other cetified trades people were to teach me install,
    Get off your lazy boy chair, drain the beer, sell the tv and enroll in courses…oh, you say you know it all then jump in the truck drive to exam office and write. Hmmm, ahhh i’m too busy…..okay too busy, then I say 50% of journeyman rate

  11. dave says:

    i make 35 an hour without a license . That not enough

  12. David says:

    If $35.00 is not enough, why not write your certificate and open doors to earn more.
    What’s the big deal with so many of you, just go in and write your certificate.
    You want to be classed as pros as possibly nurses…is there a college of nurses?
    The CoT will cost you what (+-) $.35/day, how much is a coffee?
    Read the news, there are possibly 330,000 temporary foreign workers in Canada now, ask yourself…why?
    Think of this scenario, a person goes to school and becomes dentist, earns good living, although does not continue to upgrade to new modern techniques. The dentist in the office down the street attended the same school at the same time, although he upgraded his knowledge during his career and learned new techniques…who do you think, makes a higher average income.
    All people in all careers must be educated and certified and MUST throughout their career, continue to enroll in courses just to keep up.
    This world and technology is changing at an ever increasing rate those who keep up will survive those don’t fall behind.
    Think of this, if no certifications required for your trade, which new foreign temporary worker will take your job?
    Hmmm, you now have university grads who can not find work in their field going into your field and these people will study and excel and you will have temporary workers.
    You want something more scary, shut off or slow down oil production in Canada…oops low or no income!

    • dave says:

      yes they bring in foreign workers house them and give them a job nothing will ever be done about that. If so put a stop to bringing them in the first place.
      Making us all licensed and most likely unionized will make it easier for them to go underground and do the work for cheap. will they send union thugs to eradicate them ?Hey as far as income make enough to live well and all extra goes to the government in taxes and fees
      When I hire someone to work for me I don’t look at his schooling or his license , I look at the quality of what he has done ( show me the proof) that you are worth the money.
      I have followed a lot of licensed trades people and wouldn’t have them do any work for me what so ever. The license does’t make the person their quality of work does. Im sorry you can’t see that and are to hooked up on a piece of paper. Congratulations for being better than all the rest of us non licensed trades people
      Its something to know how little you guys think of us Shit we employ you guys. guess we really are stupid .

  13. Jim Groves says:

    If we want to make this an election issue, we need to inform the public (i.e. Joe Homeowner). They have no idea that tthis is going on and how this will impact them. Try atttending a local candidates meeting and ask what each party is going to do about it. Be sure to mention the $14 billion defiicit at WSIB.

  14. dave says:

    Can you guarantee all of us non licensed tradesmen that we will get higher wages and full time work by being licensed You still have competition pricing jobs , can you guarantee the customer will pay the high priced contractor because he is licensed.
    You guys should leave doctor and lawyers dentists out of the picture. Regular trades people have very little in common with them. All i see is that the license gives you bragging rights, most of us non licensed trades learned from true craftsmen . Why can’t anyone come up with a real reason for us to waste time getting a c of q when we are already respected by our customers . For me I couldn’t give a sore ass if you or anybody else isn’t impressed that I don’t have a license. And if i make a lot more money the government takes it in taxes. I don’t like working for nothing to keep some shit in a new truck and eat at the restaurant while i work. if you want to go ahead. No license means the government doesn’t have me by the balls and when they feel like it they can squeeze a little harder maybe you enjoy it but i don’t.

  15. David says:

    Laying here (i don’t have TV and don’t enjoy) and attempting to figure out how to persuade the last two blogs the importance of certifications.
    One other item, I am not better then any of you!
    We live in a very competitive country when it involves acquiring a good placement in the career you desire. Not only that situation is true for this country, it is much more defined as this countries skills on a whole, as compared to the world. Where are the products produced that we purchase, in Canada or mostly offshore. Why is this? Profits, profits! Which translates to the common denominator of money.
    Yes those countries workers, work for less money, although if we are skilled and more efficient we can weigh the scales towards our favor. Skills come through experience and education, the higher the skill the more education is required.
    I worked in Germany for awhile and those workers were very skilled and very well educated in their respective trade and also very efficient. North America has not grasped the importance of having very highly skilled trades on a whole. The trades were paid very well…more then us and appeared to have a good standard of living.
    Where I was assigned the company had in house classrooms for apprentices, you worked and attended school at that company structure. Those same trades people were assigned to another country, whilst we assembled and commissioned the project.
    In my opinion, education creates freedom from control of anyone and opens doors to opportunities that non-foreseen.
    I mentioned in previous blogs how continuing education assisted me. From starting out wiring houses in my off time at the age of 13 (should have been studying)to Chief Electrician and maintenance superintendent working in
    10 different countries.
    Mark my words, when you are older and out of work with no certificate…you will be…..lets just say, “up the creek”
    The company that I was employed by, now 28,000 employees had a matrix for education and upgrading and if you didn’t attend those….you didn’t have a job.
    Just write your certificates, get the paper that proves to whoever, you passed the exam.
    In 1991, I took $3000.00 out of my savings, after studying oil field related electrical systems for 8 months (had my Red Seal and unrestricted contractors ticket) and flew to Texas for a course. So many laughed at me and (+-) 3plex weeks later I was in the middle of a gas field in the middle east and the beginning of an incredible adventure filled 16 years.

  16. dave says:

    I am 57 Years old don’t have high school cannot write the exam anyway. Have at total of over 40 years in the trade , 31 as self employed for 6 of the first ten years i was head carpenter over 6 employees. I have no intension of going to trades school to get a ticket . I will loose my home truck and most everything just to get one. I have done quality work and have been paid by happy customers. I have heavy equipment to dig foundations, level properties etc. I will have to apprentice How do you see any other way to keep what i have worked for, for years. This is not what i envisioned as my future to Have my net worth dropped to nothing just to get the privilege to work.
    So i can call myself worthy to be an experienced canadian skilled trade. My take on all this is we are incompetent until proven competent.

  17. David says:

    You have been gainfully employed, a supervisor and a general contractor which entails the trust of your employer and your clients for over 40 years and readily admit, ” you can not write the exam.”
    How do you read blue prints, read the code and its upgrades associated with your craft. If you are unable to write the exam associated with your trade for 40 years, how do you really know if you are performing your work correctly.
    I am not slighting you for your ambition and success, although
    I believe my defence for mandatory certification is complete.
    Good luck and adios.

  18. dave says:

    David I can read and write But i read somewhere on the OCOT site that you would not be able to write the exam unless you had grade 12 . which leaves me out.
    And yes i can read plans etc.

  19. Hi David and Dave….enjoying the conversation between you both. Both of you have made good points and show your commitment and the experience ypu bring to the table. Finally allowing the other guy to speak, acknwlegding their points and being civil. Glad to know you

    both are in the industry and with that in mind, we are in good hands.

    CARAHS (Canadian Association of Renovators And Home Servics)

    Toll free 1 866 366 2930

  20. dave says:

    Alec I must say it is very hard to be civilized when we are classed as incompetent and its all about the license. couldn’t we argue about world peace or the destruction of the planet or how govts. have screwed us out of our hard earned money !instead bickering about a little piece of paper that only the haves want .
    a sick sick world. cheers

  21. You are right Dave and it sad that the little piece of paper the Ontario College of Trades (OCOT) is PROPOSING/wants will automiatcally make the majhority home renovators illegal cutting wood or drywalling without having served an apprenticeship.

    CARAHS is out to protect the quality self employed home renovator and I”ve seen with my own eyes some work for qualified trades people and some don’t show quality.

    Its about prides of workmanship and if OCOT would grandfather in existing trades, maybe allowing them to quickly show what they can do, maybe take a test to see if they can qualify. They will not allow this. Why not, because the its a deal made with the carpenters union and its about bringing unionised worker in to home renovations.

    I beleive in the fundimentals of unions and why they are needed. I also beleive in choice. Unfortunately OCOT does not beleive in choice, they only want to collect money to grow their organization, with benefits and pensions for thier staff I’m sure and do it on thge backs of others… donkies!

    This (OCOT) is another layer of interference and taxation.

    If the Liberals get back in power in Ontario,OCOT will make this law. The PC’s said they’ll close OCOT. Again the PC’s said they’d do something about the BEERS stores manopoly, but yesterday they did a u turn. They may u turn on OCOT once in power, thats the gamble, but at least the PC’s might stick to their agenda.

    Its a gamble and I’ m voting to not unemploy home renovators.

    Sure everyone shouts higher standards, but that can this not be acheived over time with an acceptable plan and time line

    OCOT wants blood instantly and unemployment. They will force legal quality renovation companies into the underground market with their approach.

    Its about greed and money. This is the downfall of all these issues you mentioned. This goes on in our own backyard and around the world.

    We can only deal with out own backyard and hopefully other like minded people like you, I and others will follow suit and cause change.

    With ripples comes waves and change happens.

    With the Canadian Contractor form here, it allow us to express what we think.

    Everyone speaking up here are my hero’s.

    WE NEED MORE HERO’S. Speak up now before its….. Vote….use it….

    Alec at CARAHS

    • Edward says:

      Flip flop pc party…. And they would have to win with majority to do anything fruitful. Likely will not happen

  22. dave says:

    well said Alec , well said

  23. dave says:

    My nephew who is a licensed plumber installed a submersible pump for a customer.
    He was in the midst of getting his pump license. The customer sued him for their well going dry. Any one who knows anything about doing drilled wells knows unless the pump is right on the bottom and runs continuous the well will usually recover.
    The judges comment was if you had your license it would not have been your fault.

    Now you pass with 70% on your exam , which means you may not know 30 % of your job . Which 30% don’t you know ? How does that make you skilled if you can screw up 30% of the time. Customers have to trust that it not their house you have a bad day on. I don’t see where the quality of work is going to improve, if you are allowed to screw up as a licensed trade. And get away with it because you have a license.

    Should you not have to pass with 80 or 90% on your exam.

  24. Questo says:

    Hi Dave, if this well is a sand point, is one thing, if not there should consideration be taken on a few things. Jet submersible pump: I do have one, and my well is 200 feet deep the pump is at 86 feet down, at 8.5 gpm, and there are two way valves, one right at the pump and one before the pressure tank, both pointing direction of the water, also before pressure thank a cut off handle valve, and after the thank another one, for service.

    The pressure tank have to have a switch to cut off the water pressure around 40 to 45 psi, this cuts off the pump.

    if both of these one way valves are installed and the pump is in the constant running, could be a hole at the bottom close to the pump, which reduces pressure and can dry out the well if its not deep enough, or not enough water if the hole isn’t big and water is left running, not pressure to cut it off and pump will run dry.

    This happen to me one time, because who did the job before, left one way plastic valve, and crake, the pump wouldn’t be able to crate pressure to cut off switch, and maintained the 40 to 45 psi. It should cut off around these pressures and catch on around 25 to 30 psi, which it can be adjusted, with plenty of water.

    I recommend using one way valves in yellow brass, much better.
    Also sometimes lightning can cause the bottom of a well connection tube to split, or crake and reduce pressure.
    if this well its not deep enough, I would put a reserve thank right after the pressure thank, on the bases, test, of running the water for a few minutes to see if the well gets dry. Also in some areas wells are drying out naturally, because the water under ground tables aren’t been feed fast enough due to the lakes and rivers getting low.

    Dave this issue may have nothing to do with been license. You could installed this pump, right and in a few months well went dry, happen to my sister in law, and was a problem due to water table getting low, she had the well for more then 10 years with no problems, rivers were drying up around and then bang no water, so plumbers should watch for this matter, water tables getting low can create a problem for them.

    Hope this info did help.

  25. dave says:

    Hey questo ya i agree only thing he has put in several pumps in the wasn’t the fault of the pump but that the well actually went dry. he ended up having to pay 8000.00 to drill a new well . if the pump had of burned out from running without water and he had hooked it up improperly , then it would have been his fault.
    I have hooked up several in the past , exactly the way you have. without any problems . To me the owners were looking for something for nothing.

    The judge should have had a understanding of water systems before making a decision , on who was in the wrong.

    When we build a house we have the well drilled first , put a pump in the well and get our water for cement work ( saves hauling it in ). never have we had a problem of running one dry .

  26. dave says:

    And the well wasn’t more than a year old .

  27. questo says:

    Hey Dave, the judge in this case, should research or ask for research documents about the zone of this area on the water table levels, not doing so he miserably decide a case with out understand what the real cause was. They fail in a lot of issues not just on this one. Our justice system is disgraceful, its a money making machine. Any convicted pay jail time for their deeds and their records will not be eliminated after liberation, became like a recycle machine.

    II am referring only in minor crimes and issues with no weight at all, but private jails needs inmates for their business. Its a failure and disgraceful treatment, of Canadian citizens.

    Our justice system can’t be trusted, if one look back what the screw ups they
    have mad makes one wonder.

    Dave regarding to wells, some areas are very corrosive with sulfur deposits and high levels of iron, consideration and caution should be taken into account before hand. that can cause a lot of problems too.

  28. dave says:

    we do have issues with water quality and need softeners etc. but they don’t usually go dry. bad water yes,
    The only time you run into anomalies is if another well is drilled and hits the same vane. I have seen a few that became artiesion wells after a neighbour drilled a new well.
    And have caused another to have sulfer water introduced to their well. You actually take a lot of chances having a well drilled .
    you have a 50 /50 chance of buggering someone else’s well .but you need water .
    If mandatory licensing does happen us non licensed guys won’t have a hope in hell of staying in business. first little problem and we will likely lose everything.
    no matter in the right or wrong we will not win in court.
    Wouldn’t you think the licensed guys ,doing bad work would get harsh treatment as they should have known better . They have had the so called proper training on how to do the job right. Unlike us non licensed who trained on the job as opposed to going to school.

  29. Questo says:

    Hey Dave, I think guys without a licensing shouldn’t worry to much, unless the Liberal party win this next election. And for what a saw on TVO today’s political leaders debate, it looks like the Liberals are tarnished and the NDP is toasted.
    It looks like the PC will win and put a stop at the red tape creations.

    Our province can’t afford losing to many skilled people at this point, either licence or not. It’s both will make our economy stronger, as you know, I told you before I hold various certifications, compulsory and none, but never advocate against none certified skilled trades people, I believe their is room for all of us, without discrimination, judgement and forced payment fees in the elusion of protections.

    The college of trades or threats will go into the forgotten book soon, and others too. This year will be interesting to see this province political system, either move to a real future or into black hole of debt and public strikes at the QP.

  30. dave says:

    yes its to bad politicians don’t understand that more laws and permits etc. forces work to the underground economy. having to pay more expecting the customer too pay more when they really don’t want to, or can’t afford to . Puts the trades person in a position of whether the customer pays the bill or not. I live in a area where we are heavy to seniors that are retired. They have limited funds they want to put out.

    I have several friends who are licensed None have ever bragged or said any thing about being better or superior in any way . They respect you for you and what you can do.

  31. David says:

    Wow, in my opinion unbelievable comments since I lastly wrote in.
    I can not believe that in day and age, and education is so very important to being able to perform and receive a good salary.
    When you attend trades school, you are not taught how to install, you are taught the theory. If you do not understand the theory you are not qualified!
    I have, as mentioned in earlier blogs, I have completed my red seal in electrical, and through reading the certifying laws in ontario, I must have the equivalent of my linesman ticket as wrote that in another province, plus adding in total of ag least 3000 hours in classrooms after grade 12.
    With that in mind, if the total knowledge required to fully understand the total electrical that I might have to fully understand,( for reference point) was 1 meter high, I might fully have knowledge for a total height of 250mm.
    Now after 39 years in the field, including estimating, supervising projects, contracting, what is your height on the knowledge scale.
    I quickly realized in life, the more you learn, the more you understand how little knowledge you actually have.

  32. dave says:

    I never said learning was a bad thing . forcing us to have a ticket to prove we know what we have been doing for years is. I don’t believe i have to prove to you or anybody else what i know . My customers are the only people that matter as far as new products look on the container or their web site and you can find all the info on it . Im building a house not a rocket ship . Building a house hasn’t changed since i started the trade . products we use, some have , codes have, not building it.
    Im sure your books will likely tell you we are building it backwards or something . Just to justify all the 3000 hrs you spent in school.
    What do you call a good salary , and are you unionized ?
    I am not allowed to do electrical now , wiring a residential house isn’t hard. they make books you can buy to keep up with codes . But in the end i had everything inspected and got permits. I dont believe its necessary to have to pay into a organization that is corrupt . just to hold a piece of paper ,sorry if it pisses you off .

  33. David says:

    No I am not peed off.
    No I do not belong to a union, although did belong to one for 14 years, great apprenticeship, although my attitude differed from many union members and I moved onto gree ner pastures.
    I just wonder why all of you who write about knowing so much, just don’t call up the CoT and book 3 hours to show all concerned that you are certified. What are you afraid of, write the ticket.
    Building houses and other structures is and will continue to change at a dramatic rate and if you as a tradesman don’t understand actual building science….big problems.
    Why do I state that, from experience on this last project using
    unknown trades (a particular crew that created much problems
    was referred).
    Please inform me why a non-certified tradesman should even be
    close to my salary when I had to perform apprenticeships and
    What do I call a good salary for a tradesman? In these times with the cost of living, saving for children’s education, investing, purchasing a home, vacations, and just living a proper life for having to work in all types of conditions and weather, plus living on low salary during apprenticeships, paying for continuing education…minimum $100,000.00 per year and hopefully some years that are better to cover the lean years.
    I these days if you are certified an earning less, you are not taking advantage of the boom times in certain areas of the country. There is a huge potential for certified tradepeople to earn much more.
    Instead of worrying about who will win the election and create a utopia, obtain a good education in your trade.
    The world does not end at the border of Ontario or even Canada, for with certifications the world is a huge pie of opportunity.
    For all you younger people out there, think and do six things…education, certification, education, certification, education, certification.

  34. dave says:

    As i have said before i’m 57 I have 8 years until retirement. I have no intention of writing . No party has ever asked me for a carpenters license , just now the ocot forcing it upon us. This whole thing is nothing more than a money grab, which you seem ok with. the college is nothing to the trades but a money grab. If i want to work to make tons of money i can. but in the end more goes out in income tax , again for more bullshit in spending. Like i said where i live your not going to raise rates and have work. I like where i live and don’t plan on moving to a area where the upper class with money live.
    You make it sound like we are somewhat stupid because we didn’t have schooling.
    instead we worked in the trade and learned . If i was to hire you I would want to see what you can do on the job. your time in school really means little to me.
    I had a licensed carpenter work for me several years back, he bragged how good he was.I went behind him fixing mistakes, he cost me a lot of extra work and money.
    I’m not saying you shouldn’t go to school , if you choose to fine. but being forced to just to be able to work no.

    • Linda says:

      It is about time companies and individuals will be required to hire licensed carpenters, and not the guy that is handy at doing many things
      Plumbers must be licensed, electricians must be licensed, why not carpenters
      I am tired of hearing how much licensed electricians and plumbers make, however, I see jobs looking for licensed carpenters offering $15- $20 an hour! Do licensed electricians and plumbers get offered only $15-$20 an hour. I doubt it.
      Licensed. Are ters deserve the respect and pay the other licensed trades have had for ever

  35. dave says:

    well looks like we are all screwed now . time to move out west, until they do the same thing.

  36. Questo says:

    Hey Dave, time for trades people to manifest and demand, I Believe this majority win is only a short leaved, she will be unable to delivery what was promised the Province debt will increase, maybe to a point of bank corrupted.

    The gas plant scandals, and emails deleted will surface soon, may create a big deal for this new elected government.

    Yeah, you maybe right about the trades people, may trigger a exodus for the west. This could be a good opportunity to the trades demand changes from the government or gone west. Either way may in deed be a chaotic future we may enter soon in this province. Only 37% voted, and 63% did not, she and her party won the majority of 37%, its less then 50% of the population shouldn’t be a majority at all. This majority will represent about or close to 5 million people out of 13,5 million, Ontarians are sending their clear views.
    I though I was watching Hollywood film, with her speech, made me almost vomit.
    I still can’t believe this election was won with majority with all these pass scandals, something is really wrong in this Province.

  37. dave says:

    There is something wrong here for sure. There are to many that didn’t know or just don’t care.
    Hudac screwed himself with letting 100,000 go. and saying he hates unions. It will be more work having to watch over my shoulder all the time but will have to .

    People are fickle someone has to think for them i guess.

    You can lead them to water but can you get them to drink. Guess not to FICKLE .

    Wait until they get their bills for work done their going to be really pissed.

    Their fault

  38. David says:

    Who cares who won the election! The people hav spoken live with the decision.
    I have entered many opinions on this blog and people still reply how they don’t want to attend school, train and be certified……too bad, so sad, as the government s fast tracking another 25,000 visas for skilled people to enter Canada and fulfill jobs where Canadians are not skilled enough to perform. Do you all who refuse to educate yourself need to be beat with stick to make you understand how important education is. You all will be working for an immigrant who values an education.
    Not obtaining an education to your fullest potential is a 100% sign of laziness.
    I m 68 and this month begin my appraisal of my math skills so as to have a base for adult classes in math this fall and winter, I want to achieve to my highest capability over next few winters… watching brain numbing TV shows. Get off your butts and pick up
    a book.

  39. Questo says:

    David, in here Canada, or Provincial, to be skilled needs a apprenticeship program, then go for C&Q, how can these so called visas for skilled people with out any experience will be allowed to work here?

    Can you clarify what kind of skilled people are those if you know?

    In the pass a lot of these so called skilled people were doctors in other countries and come here to became tax drivers, maybe there is a need for some more.

  40. dave says:

    congrats at 68 you still have your health. Maybe you should run for politics i’m sure the Liberals could use your help.It seems that what is good for you is what every one else should do . The last time i looked we were able to make our own decisions on what we wanted in life.
    Its also interesting that the only way to get an education is go back to school, don’t they take the information out of a book? Hmm they sell books at chapters don’t you know , they even have pictures in them. wow you should look.
    You choose to train your way the rest of us maybe a different way.
    As far as the voters only 37 % voted, not many care for what there is to choose from, still they should have voted.

  41. questo says:

    Hey David, I found what you have talk about, amazing, I have two of the certificates on the list, applied for a lot of companies never be called.
    A lot of trades people hold more then one cert and can’t find what they are looking for.

    My daughter have one on the list, works part time for five years, because there isn’t full time available in the health care, where she works. ( bullshit) Also some nurses are part times too, but there is full time and enough money for the crooks which work on the offices and management too.

    I also know some people which have some of these certs on the list and are looking for work more then a year, and some way more then that, can’t find nothing.

    My soon is a construction civil engineer, took him almost two months to find work after school, also temporary contract for 6 months. There were known contacts, if not, he may still looking for work.

    I wonder what kind of cool aid are these politicians drink?

    For them to say there isn’t skilled people here to fill the positions is a none sense

  42. David says:

    Questo-if you were looking at electrical in the oilfield, you will require training in PLCs, SCR and VFD systems (rosshill to start).
    If the rest of you can not find work in your field of training here in Ontario…get on your horse and to greener pastures. Do what you gotta do or fall behind.
    At one point in my career I was a Canadian citizen, a resident of Dubai, residing in the USA and working in Bolivia. Improvise!
    One person saying that I still had my health, hmmmm… two replacement knees, a Whipple Procedure for Ampullary Carcinoma, a mesh inserted across my stomach to keep my intestines inside. Still on the tools building a house and looking after 5 rentals. Reason i work on the tools, too many problems with unskilled tradespeople.
    If a trades type person is required of one who does not require a special certificate, such as a gas ticket, we hire reasonablepersons and train them for a special job and work with them. We become friends and also they learn how we want things installed.
    You all remember me later on in life and those who listen will be successful and those who don’t will be kicking beer cans down the road.
    Where did I read about the 25000 skilled persons to enter the country, on the internet news this morning.
    Alberta and Saskatchewan are begging for skilled trades people, N. Dakota requires 20,000 skilled trades people. Texas has no trades people. Mexico is sitting on untapped huge reserves of gas and will in few years developing these fields….no skilled people.
    I was just at the cottage for a week and conversing with friends and relatives about this blog and how o many of you are against education and certification. Everyone of them were astounded that anyone would not go to school to advance their knowledge and skill level in order to increase there earnings potential and have a good life for themselves and their family. One person had attended school and university for total of approx. 30 years and is still attending seminars and courses.
    We all have and make choices!
    For the fellow who wants the ND in power….I lived in the early 80s when the N DP gained power and at election time I had about 6 years of good projects to look forward to. Not to be, as 6 months after they came to power I was unemployed and was for the next 14 months.

  43. questo says:

    Thanks David for inform me about technical issues above. I do have those and much more, I never stop upgrade my skills. Cost me a lot of money, be wasted
    in this cesspool of cash grabs and none respected will be undesirable.

    I had couple offers on job taking cense last year, some are even in Europe and south America, I may consider those.

    I really appreciated your input and hope you get much better with your health.
    I just watch the news and the first mayor charged with fraud, was the City of London On, Joe Fontana, hope the gas plant scandals will bring some more charges on those really abused power.

    Apparently the college of treats will go full speed now, then things will turn real bad in here. It isn’t the fees a problem, its the irony of cash grab and in return nothing to gain.

    Construction in some areas appear to be slowing down, and may get even horse.
    When the banks start to ask pay me really fast those 12.5 billion interest on the debt, then we may get the second face of Mac Guilty. Further more the same unions were on the rhetoric for these Liberals Majority, will be the ones to go after them in the upcoming public sector renew collective agreement, with no money to spare will be interesting.

  44. Bob Holland says:

    The collage is a money grab and does nothing to improve the trades. My wife is with the collage of nurses and all it does is put its members on trail. Daughter is a teacher… same thing. All just a money grab and get rich scam for those sitting on these boards.

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