Canadian Contractor

Alec Caldwell   

How's that for ethics from the Ontario College of Trades? My CARAHS members are hopping mad!

Canadian Contractor

"I was forced to renew my license, even though the one I had in my hand indicated two more years before renewal."

In an article by Diana Mehta of the Canadian Press published May 5, 2013, Ron Johnson, chair of the Ontario College of Trades’ board of governors is quoted as saying, “You’re looking at an industry, in terms of the trade community that really hasn’t had any enforcement of any nature.”

Sir, how can you possibly make such a blatantly untrue assertion? How can your words be true when the Ontario Ministry of Labour have 140 inspectors on the ground right now in the construction industry available to confirm documentation and enforce the law! And the MoL have been effectively doing this work for years!

The article says, furthermore, that “An enforcement team is being trained and will eventually have about 150 officers investigating complaints and cracking down on those working without necessary certifications, although those actions will be phased in.

Eventually? Phased in? Bluntly, I say the College’s current 20 enforcement officers are no match for those 140 Ministry of Labour inspectors who are being phased out. 

Let me give the final word to one of my CARAHS members who writes: “I was forced to renew my license, even though the one I had in my hand indicated two more years before renewal. How’s that for ethics from the Ontario College of Trades?”

It seems like a money grab and more bureaucracy in my opinion.

CARAHS is a not for profit organization Toll Free 1-866-366-2930   


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89 Comments » for How's that for ethics from the Ontario College of Trades? My CARAHS members are hopping mad!
  1. Ray Marsden says:

    The same thing happened to me. Expiry date 2015, have to pay again.
    They claim we will have a say in how our trades will operate. Well so far we have no say at all.
    What are they doing bragging about hiring ex policemen, what are they supposed to know about trades. Are they retired,resigned, let go or what from the police force or is it a more promising job, e.g. less work more pay. They should be hiring from within the trades. It seems they are all about discipline, punishment and enforcement and collecting our hard earned money to indulge themselves with huge salaries e.g. $70,000 a year for enforcement officers to start. Sounds like it beats policing. Goodness knows what their benefits are and they will adjust our annual fee to suit them.
    I have not heard anything I would call encouraging. I thought the word college means a place of learning or school. Ontario Enforcement of Trades would better describe them. Do they need a Bay Street offtice and at what cost?

  2. Marie Chalmers says:

    Our young employee is going through the same frustrating beurocratic route right now, his license is paid for until 2014 and they have sent him a bill for the pleasure of a NEW license. He has called repeatedly and he has still not received an adequate answer to his questions. He has a wife and young family, hard to make ends meet and then someone tells you a bill that you paid has to be paid again, extortion comes to mind but they said that was a very strong word to use regarding this matter. When he asked to speak to a supervisor, whoops the call was lost. Maybe Mr. McGrath should open his phone line up and answer some questions. We as a trade are licensed and governed and watched at every level. How much more do we have to give to be a licensed tradesman in Ontario, Ontario ha, the land of killing buisiness and sending it elsewhere.

  3. Chris Langman says:

    I can’t understand why trades and small businesses don’t stand up for themselves and their customers and boycott the College of Trades and the Wsib. These two Liberal Government enacted disasters are going to further cripple legitimate trades and craftspeople in Ontario.

    We need a collective, coherent voice of dissent against this kind of Government stupidity.

  4. Chris Langman says:

    I can’t understand why trades and small businesses don’t stand up for themselves and their customers and boycott the College of Trades and the Wsib. These two Liberal Government enacted disasters are going to further cripple legitimate trades and craftspeople in Ontario.

    We need a collective, coherent voice of dissent against this kind of Government stupidity.

    • Nicole says:

      A lot of people still do not know… Many are working long hours if not doing school at the same time. I have just found out today. This province is getting out of control .. What disappointment this was to my son, after his third year in millwright… this province has nothing good, she taking every thing away from all people and all age group .

  5. Joe Greps says:

    They only have 20 enforcement officers because that’s likely all they can afford.

    Officers are members of OPSEU and earn around $70K a year plus benefits and pension, add in auto/travel allowances and your looking at likely in the area of $125K each, a 150 of them would cost $19M

    Ron Johnson, chair of the Ontario College of Trades’ is on record as having a budget of around $20M, (150 000 compulsory tradesmen at $120 is $18M).

    In short, in order to match the current enforcement level offered by the MOL JUST for construction would require their entire budget. That leaves nothing for license administration, promotion of trades, legal, (huge for these types of colleges) building costs (they are on Bay street) etc.

    Think about it:

    Ontario is geographically large, has 13.5 million people, 500 000 tradespeople, (150 000 compulsory ). This College claims that for $20M/yr they can address every complaint from bad brake jobs to bad haircuts (Compulsory trade complaints MUST be investigated), enforce unlicensed contractors, promote trades, conduct ratio reviews, and administer apprenticeships & trades licensing.

    Something about Florida and cheap land comes to mind….

  6. Debra Myers says:

    They don’t work for us (the trades people). This is ANOTHER Canadian government money grab and i am sure all the trades people are very unhappy about this. I already called and wrote an e-mail. If it was a group working for the trades they would have bothered to respond instead i got nothing. Just like the rest of this damn government A JOKE

  7. Charmaine Siddall says:

    Im a hairdresser for 35 years in my business if a customer needs to complain about my work they come to me.I fix the problem through discussion and action. If that is not satisfactory I either give back their moneys and or I lose their business. My reputation goes by my work I am responsible for what product I put out. I think that’s why we are so FRUSTRATED by the new Colleges and Trades system . It seems as long as they threaten our lively hood they keep us in order.They the new governing body (who are these people)are not organized at all to give us answers because they don’t know. Our MP is not listening Frustrated in Ontario!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Robert Koci says:

      That’s what I don’t understand. How come our MPPs are not hearing this frustration? Why are they having such a hard time acting to make changes to our public service to encourage small business, not destroy it?

    • David L says:

      My wife certified by G. BROWN Hairdressing 40 yrs back was employed until several years ago and now self-employed. Her expose is as long as your arm with doing charities and professional services including teaching advanced cutting etc. Apparently, OCOT is looking at apprentices and new people in the industry as Employers/Self-employed are not required. I my be incorrect but this topic needs to be reviewed in depth. Attaining forms and documents form the ministries, labour and education is needed here. So, know your rights when Mr. Enforcers, without industry experience knocks at your door. Ask him for documentation and what’s th ontario fines for non compliance. Show me the ticket or wheres my official government letter. Adolf! I will start a FB open page against OCOT…watch for it..good luck all and don’t fear these money grabbing institutes.

  8. Bob Bailey says:

    I love the 1st comment from Ray Marsden. Right on the money, my friend!

  9. Jessie Bondy says:

    This college of trades shouldn’t even be an issue. We need to take charge of the situation as the trades people and just not pay, if everyone will stick together I’m in! I don’t know who these people think they are but the government is suppose to be elected by us to help look out for us and in our best interest and when they don’t we need to. Forcing us all to join a “membership” to a club that benefits us in no way and only steals from us, which I’m pretty sure stealing is still illegal, is absurd. And we just need to show we won’t put up with it through our actions.

  10. Marie Chalmers says:

    I was actually going to suggest that Bob Bailey should see this blog but I am happy to see one government official in our area is interested. Hoping he is still at least paying attention, what about our other government official (Liberal counterpart) she is still in the dark!! Who in the future is going to plumb her toilet, fix her air conditioner or even care to. Keep up the fight Bob!!!

  11. Travis H says:

    It’s as if they want everything to be done under the table – there is already a shortage of workers in the trades and things like the extra fees won’t help. How many people are going to be deterred by yet another cost to do an often thankless job in the trades? Typical though, take something that is working (MOL) and dismantle it until it’s such a mess that everyone just gives up. Maybe when there is no one left the government will realize they messed up…

  12. Dean Kadikoff says:

    I am wondering, what the hell can we do at this point? seems to be stalled even with all the association support. No mainstream media stories on the vocal pushback we post to all these trades magazine stories. Writing to our MPPs falls on deaf ears. Who can we turn to to get something done on this? I am thinking that we need a mass gathering of all tradespeople to march on Queens Park when the Ontario legislature are back on September 9th. Something huge and extreemly vocal needs to be done to get this government to put the brakes on this runaway train.

    I Need To Vent Before I Blow A Gasket:

    This whole thing stank from the beginning. They quietly pushed it through the house four years ago, with little to no information given to, or input requested from the people it is purported to represent. Where was the debate? Where was our voice? The deceit and the mistruths from this OCOT just angers me terribly. “most tradespeople are all for this”. I say BULLSHIT. “we are here to represent 500,000 tradespeople”. I say BULLSHIT. “Take a hands on approach to your career”. I say BULLSHIT. Although your license was renewed for the next 3 years it is no longer valid, you now owe us 600% more to maintain your license. I say BULLSHIT. Already six OCOT employees on the sunshine list, starting salaries for “enforcement officers” of $70,000 per year, corporate office on Bay Street, one of the highest priced rental areas of Canada. I say BULLSHIT. Not for profit my arse, this just means they will spend every cent they bring in. I say BULLSHIT.

    I have had it. I am done.

    • Robert Koci says:

      Six employees on the Sunshine list!! That’s twisting the knife.

    • Robert Koci says:

      I worry also that can’t seem to find the next step in resisting this public service robbery. We need some good advice on how to pull the frustration in our industry into a single effective political force.

  13. PJC says:

    God damn right its BULLSHIT !
    The intimidation & threats have started from OCOT – I have told my local mp I am willing to drive my crane to Queens Park with as many others out there as we can – hang a few wrecking balls in the air – something has to be done !
    I am willing to step up to the plate – Sept 9 – lets put the call out to everyone & put a stop this &%*$#

    • Robert Koci says:

      That’s our biggest challenge. How do we rally contractors across Ontario and convince them to become political about the OCOT?

  14. John hughes says:

    Like all the mechanics in Ontario we are under DOT guide lines now the college of trades demand more money for enforcement, now we have two government departments to carry. I thought the college of trades was formed to encourage young people to get an apprenticeship, but No it is just an other tax to pay the lazy boys at queens park should be made to work for a living before they have the power to tax the hell out of workers in Ontario, maybe they would understand why working people hate the clowns at queens park.

  15. John Hughes says:

    Bob Guthrie, $160.000 a year plus benefits not bad money for a used car sales man type, now I know were my hard earned money goes. Five of the people that work for the college of trades are on the sunshine list.

    • Robert Koci says:

      I worry that, at the “big picture” level, the public service has reached a tipping point where it is so large that it has effectively become the biggest voting block in the country and so can continue to vote in governments that feed its voracious appetite for bureaucracy and control. The OCOT is the evidence.

  16. Alec Caldwell says:

    Hi Bob,
    You’re right and where’s our sunshine list in life?

    They are all about building jobs for themselves for life. Their not even a College of training, as the names suggest and might sound a great name to market to the public. We know that’s all smoke and mirrors and I believe homeowner don’t realize this. Their just another level of government, taking tax and giving reason for the underground market to flourish futher .

  17. jim b says:

    I fully agree with Alec and Ray Marsden well said its all about enforcement and threats which they have already tried on me. I will have to pay but they will have wait for the grace period is near over before I part with my hard EARNED money. It should be people that are tradespeople not donut shop browsers doing the enforcement. Does the college think we are criminals and need to have ex cops doing surveillance and wiretaps and who knows what else.I’m glad I am near done my time getting ready to retire. If not I would be heading west where when you get a ticket its good for life no yearly charge required.

  18. Gerry Doan says:

    My son became a licensed mechanic in 2011 after a four year apprenticeship. When he wrote the exam the ministry indicated that upon passing he would be given a license and not have to register again for three years 2014.
    Now someone has taken over the business side and I assume responsibilities that were part of the ministry. If that is the case any contacts that the ministry has must be taken on by the new organization unless otherwise stated. My son had a contract with the ministry in that if he passes he would not be subject to any other trade fees until 2014 Therefore the threats that my son has received are threats and should be illegal.
    Unfortunately many young tradespeople have no one to speak for them and will just pay to keep the OCT off of their backs

  19. Hi Gerry, Thanks for sharing and that’s the lack of ethics I talked about when I wrote this article. You’re right, when you say most young trades people will just pay, to make it go away. It’s a terrible situation, especially when your son and others receive threats from this new money grabbing organization.

  20. Don Voigt says:

    Typical of the government to download a service to a private group.My MPP Monte McNaughton has petition sheets that he is going to enter when the legislature resumes. Contact your own MPP and put on pressure. If they won,t listen it,s time for a new person. The conservative party has promised they will get rid of the college after the next election.I tried to contact members of the NDP but no return answer, so much for the ” party of the people” they are a joke.

    • Robert Koci says:

      Conservative MPP Garfield Dunlop tabled a private members bill to limit the power of the College of Trades with regards to appointments. I’ve asked that a rep of the Conservative party come to do an interview with us. I’ll let you know when that happens.

  21. What ever happened to freedom in this country? What does Liberal mean, anyway? What is the ratio of producers (skilled service workers) to non-producers (governing bodies, policing services, OCOT, OMVIC, MTO, Ministry of Environment with ODP program, Stewardship Ontario Program, Drive Clean Program, WSIB, HSO, MNR, and all those other ministries or backed organizations who self serve, only provide us with more paperwork, fees, taxes, headaches, and backaches!) Can these people give us a f**kin’ break and let us do our jobs! Can we not just earn a decent living without fighting our whole lives for what we’ve earned? Does anyone else here, as a skilled worker, feel overwhelmed and suffocated by these lazy, self serving, good for nothing people robbing us of our money and our lives?

    • Chris Langman says:

      Jason, you said it very well. It is time to do something about the excessive controls put in place by an obese government.

  22. Hi Jason,
    I think you mentioned about everyone out there and you’re right. The industry is over regulated and top heavy with all these organizations feeding off hard working guy like you and 1,000 of others. They create all these organizations that cost money and I feel its simply to make work and incomes for themselves off the back of others.

    I’m glad CARAHS is not connected in anyway to government and as a non profit organization, contractors volunteer if they want to become members with us or not. Some of these organizations you mention force people and threaten them if they don’t pay their fees, they cant work. Just the same way the Ontario College of Trades is behaving right now. If you don’t pay and you’ve been a trade for 30 years, they can simply make you unemployed if you don’t pay their forced fees.

    Its not right and everyone needs to speak up like you.
    Alec@CARAHS (Canadian Association of Renovators And Home Services)

    • Clare Wilson says:

      Is it not time that David and Questo stop the bantering and really get to the point!!!!!!
      Yes we have all been in this trade with a 309a red seal (which in point was never in contention,) I pose a question to David and Questo…….. 1-have you contacted and had conversations with the the COT. ,,,,If so what were your concerns expressed in those conversations. The largest concern should be the lack of representation of the certified trade members in a region out side of the economic mecca called the GTA..I was schooled by extreme professionals,over 30Yrs ago,,,
      listening to your garbage has only fueled my fire to find a resolve to the ever lasting ? of how do you ever eliminate the influence of government!!!!!!!!!!!!…..
      That said !! We all know the answer to that…Moving on………………..If you are really concerned with educating and advancing the (trainable apps)then quite possibly you should apply to the college and advance your cause?????

    • Clare Wilson says:

      The website seems to be rather disfunk in it’s interpretation of comments…I responded to Questo and Davids bantering and was told by your website that it was a duplicate comment…Please read and respond…….


  23. Jason Powless says:

    What is the ratio of non-producing government or government backed organizations to actual skilled tradesmen in this province? Can anyone give me the answer? Because if it is a fact that there are more people working for government and backed organizations, then I would certainly predict a collapse in the system. We, as workers, cannot support an extremely fat political environment with a struggling workforce. Period. I don’t know when these shitheads will wake up and smell the truth. They are all probably too old by now to do so and are just milking our system for what they can before they die rather than look to the future of our Province, Country, and Kids. Seems like a solution to what we face lies in recruiting the means and manpower of third world countries to resolve future epidemic problems, which is typical for selfish individuals of power. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

    That said, when we recruit new-comers into the country, although skilled, may work for less and may not be able to pass our schooling nor exams due to language barriers or whatever, then it makes sense to provide membership to policing organizations to handle complaints and provide a false sense of security to the trade job.

    Sorry guys for all the thoughts, it’s making more sense to me now then it ever has. I don’t usually think this far into things, but maybe we weren’t meant to. Right Bob?

  24. Stephen Bielec says:

    We must take courage and stand up for what is right. The OCOT is extortion and
    robbery. These are self enhancing opportunists who will parasite from the labours
    of the people of Ontario. The right to work in your trade denied and made illegal is
    a crime. We are a dictatorship. The MPP”S are out to lunch. They are not trades
    people and will not listen. Should there not be a class action lawsuit against the
    government and the unjust Ontario College of Trades reqarding the human right to


    Opinion: New CEO at Ontario College of Trades has a chance to make it useful to our industry.

    Read this article at the Canadian Contractor by clicking on following link:

    We’d like to here your thoughts on this new article. Please post your comments on this new articles page. The good, the bad and the ugly!

  26. READ THIS NEW ARTICLE ON THE COLLEGE at the Canadian Contractor called:

    Opinion: New CEO at Ontario College of Trades has a chance to make it useful to our industry

    Click on the following link:

    We’d like your feed back on this new article. Please post on the new article your comments, the good, the bad and the ugly.

  27. Hermann Sandfuchs says:

    The Colleges off trade is a rip off. I served as a apprentices for 4 year and earned the Certificate of Qualification , they have no right to tell us if we can work in our trade. Certificate should be good for life like it is in Europe. $120.00 + HST makes it 135.60 what a rip off. I paid up till 2015 now they want more money.

  28. Berto Rebelo says:

    Hi to all to whom will read this document..

    If you are a trades person having a Ontario College and Universities certificate and entering the grace period in 2014 or already entered, meaning the last seal of your certificate. There is a possibility for a class action law suite against the OCOT, the actual government of Ontario, for neglecting consideration on every trades person in this situation.

    Please lets make this viral, make to the local news and province wide news. I believe there are same lawyers in this province ready to take this action. I also believe there are thousands of trades people in this situation ready to go forward.

    Apparently this Ontario government is incompetent to the point of be force out.
    I loved the comments above, but apparently this next year 2014 will trigger a lot of political events. I believe a major strike province wide, demanding the Ontario government out., will occur very soon. They lost all credibility, there is nothing to
    hang on.

    Albert Einstein,

    ”A foolish faith in Authority is the worst enemy of the truth”

    Thanks to all reading this.

    Thanks to all

  29. Berto Rebelo says:


    if I ever be approach by a OCOT police demands this next year 2014 , I will refuse to sow him or her any license. I will give to him/her the copy of the Canadian Charter of rights and freedoms. I will stop working and urge all in my location to do the same, A soccer whistle will be a good idea to sound the alert.
    No one should be paying mob style ideologies in order to perform his/ her career
    anywhere in this country. It is very clear in the Canadian Charter of rights and freedoms the expression of rights of any Canadian citizen and Canadian land immigrants. Apparently at the Queens park, those whom pass the legislation fail to understand the CCRF.

  30. Berto Rebelo says:

    Hi to all,

    Another issue about the trades people, in special those are in the electrical filed.
    The Ontario government passed the insane act letting the ESA/ECRA to award master and contractor electrical licence.

    Another not for profit organization acting in the mob style tyranny, forcing this none sense master/contractor licence on Ontario licence electricians.

    If anyone apparently in this field loses his/her Ontario colleges and Universities certificate.The master/contractor license issued by the ESA/ ECRA is void. Do you know why? Hey electricians out there wake up and smell the truth, you are pros, this master/ contractor bullshit should stop, This nothing but the Capone Club under the guise of safety.

    if you don’t pay those ECRA you can’t do your electrical work, paying to them you became a club slave, another form to tax your work.

    The interesting part is: Any home owner wish to do his/her electrical work on their homes can do so, without any knowledge of electrical work. He/she would call the ESA center and take a permit. Is this about safety or about making

    The more screw ups the owner will do the better for ESA inspection, more permits.

    But wait, the inspectors will give you a paper advertising the master/contractor licence. Do you know why? They are the ones to issue these insane bullshit licences. It is clear their interest is grabbing money form master/contractor license.

    Make sure to display you ECRA number in you truck, free advertisement for them
    on your cost.

    To many leech sucking those hard working people, its time to do something about it. A call to stop these leech, ESA electrical inspectors only, ECRA should be abolish the soon the better.

    Any certified electrician knows the rules of the electrical codes, will not need these leech sucking master/contractor bullshit. This is about money nothing more.

    If the ESA/ECRA proclaim to be transparent in their business they should make public their finances status. Should the public be surprised as they were with the E test?.

    Any master licence should be done at the local College or Universities.

    Any contractor licence should be an municipal issue not the ESA/ECRA.

    A lot of mayors across Ontario sign into this stupid none sense.
    Under the not for profit organization ESA/ECRA are collecting the founds
    whish the cities give up, that’s insane .

    I would like to express another insane way in the electrical field in this province.

    If an licence electrician he/her have one/two/ or three sons or even daughters wish to became electricians, as a family business, they can’t, because the ratio of 3:1. is this the way to create jobs?

    Compare with other countries across the world this mater looks retarded.

    In a developed country:

    A licence electrician passes certification, takes license for life, for every five years can get one apprenticeship, this will help family business to boom.

    This limited 3:1 ratio is insane, serves no purposes, is destroying the electrical field trade. I believe there is no shortage of electricians in this province, appears
    to be some short circuit in the mind of those unwilling to fix it.

    To many not for profit org. in this Province of Ontario. A lot of CEOs in the NFPO
    are in the high pay range, insane, the betterment of any society is not creating a economic safety nests only for a few but ethic safe guard for all.

    Economic investments by intelligent corporations, will run away from none sense
    side agencies collecting money under the guise of safety/consumer protection and mob style tyranny hidden under the NFPO.

    What really happen to our industry in this province, in special In the city of London On. Give a look in to Leamington also and else where, where are the politics? Apparently they are busy creating an act side agencies under all source of guises to tax the people.

    Example: the Ontario E test drive clean, 19 million profit, This fraud should be stop it, If this money in a trust account, I believe a lot of NFPO are in line to get
    some of it. Those CEO’s need to get paid their insane lifestyle.

    Apparently Ontario Province is in a mess never seen before and a lot of people are responsible for.

    All certified electricians in this province, should start a petition to dismantle the ECRA and the 3:1 ratio, your business should not be limited any shape and form.
    Nor should be a subject of a mob clubs, Read the Canadian charter of rights and Freedoms.

  31. Berto Rebelo says:

    Was this covered on the media news cast?
    Why so little views on this video?

    Can you all share this as soon as possible, make this viral.

    Thanks to all,

    Happy New Year.

  32. Raf Grzeskowiak says:

    I work and live in Alberta, but got my C of Q in Ontario in 2004. I have nothing to do with province of Ontario anymore, other than pay my renewal every 5 years. In the letter i received it says that every tradesperson working in Ontario has to pay the membership fee. I don’t work in Ontario, I’m a member of an Alberta Local, do i still have to pay this ridiculous fee ? It’s funny that it says that its a membership fee, exactly what privileges will we receive as members ? I did not vote for this, a far as I’m concerned they have nothing to do with my trade ticket. This is a money grab to the fullest extent …. and I’m so glad i don’t live in Ontario, its a beautiful province, but the government is a joke !

    • Steve Payne says:

      Raf, this type of incident has come up before on this board, and the Alberta contractor out of province was been told by the Ontario College of Trades that, yes, they have to pay the fee, even though they are no longer in Ontario, if they want to keep their Certificate of Qualification, because it was issued in Ontario. Nothing about the Ontario College of Trades is democratic. Their board is fully appointed, not voted on. Their enforcement activities are mandated by a law passed by the McGuinty Liberals. The privileges you receive are to be listed as In Good Standing on their website (or whatever wording they use for “Paid Our Fee!” This may sound over the top, and in fact it is over the top, but isn’t the central crime of the Mafia that it is in the business of collecting Protection Fees? But the only people you need protecting against are the same people asking to protect you? I fail to see how the Ontario College of Trades operates any differently. If they listed all the names of under-the-table contractors who didn’t have insurance, who didn’t pay taxes, etc, that would be one thing. But they are listing names of contractors that they have already established are legit operators, and then checking them off if they’ve paid. This is nonsense and a disgraceful misrepresentation of their mandate. They are NOT protecting the consumer, as they claim to be, nor are they promoting the trades, the second part of their self-professed mandate.

  33. Hvac contractor says:

    I have read allot of the complaints and allot of them revolve around the 120.00 fees however the last poster touched on a very good point. My business is in the heating and air conditioning business, we have been in business for over 10 year and have a very good reputation for quality workmanship.
    The problem is in our area like many others in Ontario there is and has been a massive shortage of experienced hvac techs with the refrigeration license,if anyone has a refrigeration license they are more than likely working on chillers and big money jobs not small residential aicondiment ears like what our company focuses on.
    We only employ about 4 techs and have had ads out for a long time for air conditioning techs but it seems that we only get the odd applicant and so far they either don’t have drivers licenses or they are alcoholics and had to be fired soon after being hired for comming in drunk!
    2 months ago Our business had a visit from these people that were very direct and abrasive in thier approach making sure i understood that they were warning me and when they come back there will be fines up to 10,0000.00 if we install air conditioning systems that we have done thousands of times as a licenced gas fitter, most of my competition around us dont use liceneced hvac techs cause there’s none around to hire.
    We rely heavily on air conditioning sales in the spring and summer, we are now at risk of going out of buisiness if we can’t find a licenced refrigeration mechnic to hire by the spring when the air conditioning market opens!
    So to make a long story short the 120.00 is nothing for me, what they should be doing is stop going after the companies that have been in business for a long time with good reputations and clean up all the small ones that have no licenses or bad reputations that take business away from good companies like us and mabey it might help the industry to be able to also afford the higher wages to pay these hvac technicians, By doing so we wouldnt have to constantly put our prices so low to compete with these kijiji and trunk slammer guys that open and close every year…That’s who they should be focussing on but I guess it’s easier for them to get money from mid to large size companies than it is to go around looking for the little guys that would probably just fold and not pay the fees.
    The program has good intentions for cleaning up the trash however if it puts good companies that are doing a great service out of business for reasons out of thier control such as skilled labour shortage then how is that doing anyone any good? To me it just puts all six of my employees on unemploym which I am positive that the government definitely does not want. That’s how this whole thing can backfire on them in a major way.

  34. joe greps says:

    Interesting comment hvac cont. One of my concerns with this College is while the organization is new the framework they embrace – a 1950’s trade program – is hopelessly irrelevant to todays market. Most all residential trades suffer the same difficulty competing with other market sectors and at the core it is because these trade programs have been poorly designed to serve the very market that is mandated to employ them.

    I don’t work in residential or AC so perhaps I am wrong but IMHO you don’t need a 5 year apprenticeship to shove an a-coil in a plenum, drop a condenser and run a couple lines, there has to be better ways of managing this – supplements to gas fitter tickets, a shorter residential or multi-trade program or whatever but mandating a very technical 5 year trade program for this kind of work is ludicrous.

    Sadly this College of trades seems stuck in the 1950’s where hairdressers are compulsory but tattoo artists are not even considered a trade. They deem some trades as critical enough to pay annual fees but other trades like sprinkler fitters where one might think competency is extremely important don’t and any potential change quickly bogs down in debate.

  35. Tuna Fish says:

    To all of you out there which are compulsory trades, take a look at this link.

    He apparently still in the 1942 mentality, he describes the horrible things about his parents been numbered in times of war, but he does not give a shit about selling a OCOT number for a price of 120.00 plus tax to the trades people.

    He should be ashamed of him self, describing about the politicians, in a sense he was one of them and further took the OCOT CEO position.

    I doubt he his a good layer, enforcing isn’t democratic, and he make a fool of himself. The only way to finish this OCOT is by starve them, meaning refuse to pay in large numbers make a lot of noise at the media and force the Ontario Government to go back the way it was before, and now more then ever; if they don’t listen stop working like general strike, the people is the power not these goons.

    He did not like the way their parents and Japanese were treated, but seems okay for him to impose the OCOT numbers on trades people, take their certifications away if not paid, deny the senior status on certifications, impose tyrannical laws on it, sending threatening letters, etc. What doe he knows about trades?
    Ho much his getting paid for CEO?

    The revolving doors of politicians at our cost.

    • Steve Payne says:

      Mr. Tsubouchi is in a position (CEO and Registrar of the Ontario College of Trades) that paid about $180,000 to the previous CEO. He still goes into his day job at his law firm. And, as a former Ontario cabinet minister, he’d have the Queen’s Park pension to look forward to. I don’t understand why a nearly $200k job at the OCOT isn’t a full-time, Monday to Friday gig. Perhaps they’ll raise their fees, increase it to a $400k job, and then get a full timer in place. Gotta do what you gotta do.

  36. Tuna fish says:

    I do agree with you Steve, I just wonder when the people of Ontario start to wake up for this insane way of lavish life style. How this foolish CEO blame what was done in the pass to his parents and others, and will grab money from every way he can from the people of Ontario, but not working for it.

    The OCOT sunshine list should be exposed publicly and how much they are getting paid, this isn’t about consumers protection, this is clear their financial lotto, these people need to be disclosed for what they are all of them.

    I am in the trades for the pass 35 years, I hold European certificates for life, only here in Canada we have this mob style colleting on the trades people to fill someone’s bank account.

    They failed to award those in the senior level, they are failing in any shape in form.

    The occupy movement at the OCOT will be a good idea, the sooner the better until the On government close this branch of thieves. I will not pay anything to them, I will bring them to the court. They will answer the judge, I did not vote for this, nor I was made aware how much this OCOT will cost, neither what kind of benefits if any, and all the others ware made aware. The slogan is the consumers protection, the same as the ESA/ECRA, the same story was also the E test, when 19 million was collected on the none for profit slogan.

    The gas plant scandal, 1 billion, the wind power hole, 2 billion, the cellular panels, bullshit, the Bruce power generation getting paid to be stop it, the global worming, none cense, the E health disparity, what else.

    What I can’t believe is: why the LTG never dismissed the government for incompetence?

    Now it is obvious side ways agencies will be the best tools to be used as tax tools, apparently. This isn’t democratic and can’t be understood, politics should be liable for any down fall of economic status, if they let that happen.

    The average Ontarian, if loses his/her job can’t pay the bills, his/her car and home mortgage, is liable and can lose all in the blink of an eye, but in the upper crooks class this rarely happen, now do we have two sets of laws?

    The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms express the laws very clear, and I think Tuna Dave should read that before he collect his pay check.

    They should lead by example, punching cards for the time they are in the queens park, punching cards for the OCOT goons, and all other agencies, get paid by the hour, cities etc. I think the economy will be in shape in a mater of very short time. To many people design the apparently legal ways of collecting money from others, without doing any work for it.

    Punching cards and still photos, to make sure no one punching the card for someone else, this way no apparent cash cow for them, got it. I worked in Plants which they use this system very efficient,

    People should go back in the times of the PC government and watch this Tuna Dave, then make their own conclusions. The right tool for the machinations of this Ontario Government. I believe he thinks he may win sympathy been the OCOT CEO by using his parents pass and his own, really?

    Hey Tuna Dave, in Europe our families went trough more horrors then you can ever imagine, and guess what, if you can’t let that go you are there, hook it, mentality hook it, on the pass, the same way most government MPPs are.

    In general people from Europe wouldn’t use their pass their parents pass in war times to gain sympathy on the present for economic gains. However some do,
    and these are the ones like Tuna Dave holding the prospers future.

    Does he believes his kids and grand kids will have a good future, design by morons like him?

    Tuna Dave time to enjoy your life and not forcing this insane ways of illegal OCOT mob style collection fees. Make to all of us, trades people, a good favor, come forward tell us this OCOT is illegal and publicly quit, use the media for it.

    if you really look for public sympathy, do it.

    Tuna Dave you had describe your self as a man of principles, really? Show me where, you went for the money without working for it, but in your pass PC government you condemned people in welfare, were you not like those in welfare poverty line when you was a child? You told them to buy dented tuna cans for 69 cents, for you and all the others crooks getting big checks.

    Are you a man of principles as you describe your self?

  37. 309A Electrician says:

    As I have read down through the comments, I have seen various calls to boycott the OCOT aka “Liberal Mobsters”. I have only seen a couple of blogs that report on this blatant violation of our fundamental freedom’s of Privacy and our Freedom of Mobility to work anywhere in this country Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Section 6.
    Now I know some will say that our Freedom of Mobility is subject to Provincial laws, however those laws have to prove that there is no or little infringement on your Freedom of Mobility, 6(2) Every citizen of Canada and every person who has the status of a permanent resident of Canada has the right (a) to move to and take up residence in any province; and (b) to pursue the gaining of a livelihood in any province.
    The above link is full of cases that went before Provincial and Federal courts, even up to Supreme courts that deal with our Freedom of Mobility, Freedom of Work, and in section 7 (life, liberty and security of the person) of the Charter.

    We need to get this problem with the OCOT back into the main stream media and get a lawyer out there fighting for our rights.

  38. we stand brothers says:

    Yeah alleluia, I have been pointing this stuff into the right direction for very long time. The (OCOT) Orchestrated Corruption Over Trades have to be abolished.

    They, the OCOT is on the court already, on bias and conflicted of interest on the apprenticeship issue between IBEW and the electrical private sector.
    All that can be seen at the Google site. The media should be reporting this, was on some Journal to.

    Power serve inc, took them to the courts. A class action law suite will be a good idea, A certificate of any kind should not be a subject for an exchange in membership paper on our cost, it seems to be illegal what these crooks are doing.

    A lot of people are responsible for this damage. I don’t need a police from the OCOT to come and ask me if I have a license or a membership, if anyone is working for a company was hired on the bases of their trades, certification is always asked by the HR office, what this croons are bragging about it?

    At first the Orchestrated Corruption Over Trades CEO need to be ask to leave the sooner the better. He his in to many Boards at one time. The old say, the jack all trades the performer of none, thus he have all these certifications?

    How can a membership for one year will stand for a five year program and a test
    of certification. For anyone wish to became an electrician or any trade on the compulsory trades still have to go trough the MTCU.

    So from a certified to a membership, is this make any cense? So if not paid no certification, so everyone will lose his/her certification after, then, twenty years plus, like me is twenty six, would anyone in the right mind allow this to take place?

    I am in the electrical field/PLCs/ and electronics, for 35 years, I hold European certification master mechanical and electrical (Electromechanical) for life.
    with the new trade agreement Canada and Europe my Euro cert, will be even better then the one in here. Will be no subject to the OCOT.

    But I worked very hard for the one in here, I went to school for my certification not for membership cards and illegal papers. I, like so many of us which have the certification, is a legal document can be credit over seas and others countries. Thus the OCOT paper pass this test?

    I refused to exchange my certification for a membership and soon they will receive a letter requesting all my info out of their data banks which they haven’t ask me for consent. If they refused, their is ways this can be done.

    I am not afraid to take them to the courts, I believe they will not like to be confronted with prejudice, destroying peoples way of life.

    Everyone which hold a certification start to ask them to remove you from their data base, if is enough noise they will take notice.

    The MTCU should be invaded will phone calls to abolish this Legion of thieves.
    I was told the Attorney general of Ontario was asked to open a investigation on the OCOT about the apprenticeship issue.

    I believe the Ontario legislature was used as a safe avenue to create this insane OCOT and others too, like ESA/ECRA, under the guise of safety and consumers protection. I just can’t believe Mac liar was a teacher.

    I read a document not long ago, this bill to approve the OCOT on 2009 was rushed in less then 24 h trough legislation no time to read it with the proper care, to examine what the negative impact this can do to the people on the compulsory trades and others.

    I can’t wait the day this nightmare is over.

  39. we stand brothers says:

    To all certified electricians in Ontario and others with original Ontario certification working in others Canadian provinces and territories, please take a look at this document.

    Some phone numbers should start ring in a constant mode, on the MTCU office, at the Ontario attorney general, and the OCOT, the later asking all of them to stop harassing all the compulsory trades, stop sending treat letters, stop sending renew papers, stop the police threatening fines, and let them know may soon a class action law suite will be after them. I will make as many calls I have to and ask as many questions I have to, its my right to defend my freedoms under the laws which they seems to forget.

    I believe the CBC should be alert for these things, also for the bias court issue, IBEW. This is beyond human reasonable understanding, what is going one with these croons?

    The Gloria of the pirates entering the Bermuda triangle.

  40. I agree….. United we stand and diveded we fall. These words are so true.

  41. We stand brothers says:

    To all trades in Ontario, and those wish to became trades people, just open this link and give a look for your self.

    I think the link will say all the words I which to say.

    Apparently our politics aren’t interested in this reality, maybe they have to may patronage groups to take care, to many funnels to be felled.

  42. we stand brothers says:

    They call this the privacy act, really? Just read it slowly and try to understand some passage in here. I called a piece of trash. what do you call it?

  43. we stand brothers says:

    Interesting question was asked today among my friends:

    Is the ESA/ECRA and OCOT hiring woman as inspectors?

    My answer was, I don’t really know, you have to call them and find out, I think this is only a mans club red tap jungle.

    Does anyone out there knows?

  44. All of us trades have to stand says:

    Compulsory and none compulsory trades people, Please take a good look at this

    Where the OCOT membership useless paper fits?
    This is an assault on the trades people for money nothing more.

    Important info, The OCT, Ontario College Teachers, voted for theirs on may 1997
    why all the compulsory trades were not allowed to a free choice vote?

    Something is really wrong. I think Peter Mans Bridge from the CBC should be aware of this crap, the Toronto sun journal and so on.

    Apparently all provinces want prove of a real and legal documents including Ontario. So others countries if you do work over seas or trough land.

    Can you see the real picture here? Time to wake up and smell the truth.

  45. Clare Wilson says:

    I have been in the electrical trade for 30 years, many times over that period have had ministry inspections dealing with certification, have been warned many times for not having my wallet card . Funny thing is,,,, it was not in the GTA but north of the GTA. You wont see the College anywhere except to collect the money every year……..what a joke at our excpence!!!!!!!!!!

  46. questo cazzo says:

    Yeah Wilson, I am in this trade 35 years, 26 in here and 9 in Europe, and I hold international Certification, also here I hold many College certifications related to the electrical trade.

    All those were paid by me and very hard working, not for a bunch of corrupted f,,,,, make a joke of me and all others certified electricians force to pay this useless paper. Apparently the IBEW is happy with this shit, contrary to the private sector.

    I think the IBEW should read the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, chapter 6. Also the privacy act, the trade act among the provinces and territories etc.

    The OCOT send me a renew papers, I will note even open it, this is illegal, certification for membership. The pope says,” in questo cazzo” not me.

    Just check the subject online today about drunk driving laws in BC, was overturn by the courts, violates the Constitution.

    It seems a indirect right, but certification is a way of career choice and a livelihood, now if ones does not pay the crooks from the OCOT will lose their certification. And he/she be deemed not in good status, and face fines. But the OCOT proving private info to the public without consent, apparently is okay. I haven’t consent my info in the data base of the OCOT and all is there, I checked my self. This OCOT is the monster of violations. When they were faced with my questions, they start to go in circles, they didn’t have any answers, they seems to be afraid of facing reality.

    This OCOT will not stand on the courts, and apparently the liberals mess up to serve their patronage.

    The interesting part here is: how the MOL and the ESA/ECRA will allow a legal certification to an disposed membership to do electrical work?

    My question is: ESA/ECRA, they are compromise themselves into this fraud, they to should be abolish together with the OCOT and all side agencies.

    On the ESA/ECRA rules, if you lose your certification of qualification for any reason or not up to date, our Master and contractor license is void.

    Can you see the irony here, they are all in for the money, but apparently they collude into each other. And we all can see the cats tail, Isn’t this ironic?

    Take them to the courts they way I will do and maybe others to.

    Good luck.

  47. Alec Caldwell says:

    Hi Questo and Clare,
    Great responses from you guys and everyone else so far.

    On yours comments Questo….. I can see your are really….really
    mad and rightly so. Who can disagree with guys who are in the front lines, in the trenches, getting hit with everything and guys who really know what its all about. Over regulations tie people down so much sometimes, they become to hard to keep up and earn a decent living.

  48. Questo says:

    To all trades people in the Province of Ontario.

    Our certification of qualification was sold on average $9.60 to the OCOT.
    This in the provincial tax. And $ 6.00 to the CRA, fed tax ( now called HST)
    We were turned into commodity like slaves, for a price tag.

    All the materials, shops, transport, tools, cloths, fees, permits, etc, we all need to perform our work already have tax on it. But don’t forget, WSIB, other insurances and other expenses, bills, gasoline/ diesel, and income tax, etc.

    Now lets look at this:

    Its around 150,000.00 compulsory trades people in this Province,
    The MTCU was collecting every three years about $60.00 each.

    a) 150.000.00 times 60 divide by 3 = a year average.

    b) certification sold to OCOT without our consent, for $15.60 each. (HST)
    don’t forget they also have a loan of 5 million of our tax to disbarred the slaves.

    c) now 150.000.00 ( base on $120.00) on 8% provincial tax, 1.440.000 a year, minus 1.440.000.00 = 1.560.000.00 lost, per year.

    The minister of MCTU should be fired immediately without pay for falling to look into these matters.

    Not bad for selling us compulsory trades people, are you mad?

    d) 150.000.00 ( Based $120.00 ) times 5% = $ 6.00 GST, now the OCOT
    have a lot of new staff to deduct towards CRA, most likely they will pay pennies
    on GST.

    Certification can be qualified intellectual property, now where is my royalty?
    Without the intellect of those which passed the exam, will not be possible to be certified.

    This assuming everyone pays, and their are apprentices paying $60 per year and other trades also paying $60, at this point is unknown how many companies are paying to the OCOT.

    150.000.00 times $120.00 = million minus = million profit in one year, divided by 12 = 1.083.333.33 per mouth.
    if divide per 4 = 270.833.00 a week. no expenses added yet.

    150.000.00 times $15.60 = 2.430.000.00 tax what a great deal isn’t it?

    Now the OCOT have already 20 goons on the job site making average 70.000 per year, =1.400.000.00 dived by 12 = 116.666.66 dived by 4 = 29.166.66 week.

    now 270.833.00 minus 29.166.66 = 241.666.34. per week

    Here is the interesting part, the OCOT are training another 15 goons = 21.874.99 per week no expenses added yet. They have a lot of new cars either lease or bought has to be paid, they are paying the most expensive building in Toronto, also where is the money to pay the board of directors and the CEO.

    241.666.34 minus 21.874,99 = 219791.35 cash flow without expenses
    Assuming 20 cars Max, lease and gas 450 each times 20 = 9.000.00 week
    maybe way more.

    241.666.34 minus 9.000.00 = 232.666.34 now if the board D and CEO get more then 1.500.000.00 a year The OCOT its domed.

    This isn’t accurate based if everyone pays, maybe more then 25% aren’t paying moving out of the province, and more are retiring

    Not bad to try to f,,,, all of us compulsory trades, can’t you see why they want every body on board.

    We can sink this boat in a matter of hours.

  49. Lets all sing the boat NOW.

    Lets all get in our trucks and do what the trucker did year back, when they closed the 401. Then the farmers did taking tractors in to Toronto and gridlock. Lets all self employed contractors, builder, renovators all get in their trucks, hitch up trailer if you have one and jam University Ave where they are located.


    Those found working without certification are breaking the law.

    TODAYS CC article are


    TODAYS CC article are:

    Compulsory certification of the carpentry industry will cripple the construction industry in Ontario

    Ontario Liberals, through the Ontario College of Trades, finding a way to pay the carpenters’ union back for their support

  51. Questo says:

    Hi Alec, Hypocrisy at full speed today on the news, Ontario premier was criticizing Toronto cops for making over 100k a year but forget the OCOT mantra.

    Where is the cense in all this cronies?

    Its ironic everyday pass by and see this kind of shit. Yeah to much money for a few and pennies for those really deserve a decent pay. She also announced may be elections soon. That’s why they are in full speed to pass this another insane bill.

  52. Oleber says:

    For those entered the apprenticeship act 1990 and before, under the TQAA I urge you to be very careful and refuse to pay to the OCOT. Apparently they have no business on those under the certification of qualification, on this time.

    The MTCU have to award those in this condition last stamp, a star, beside your seal.

    And the ex MTCU Minister fail do to so, and the one is in apparently is not interested. Thousands of trades people in Ontario have this condition status.

  53. Oleber says:

    Ontario Legislators who voted
    “Aye” to Bill 183
    (Forced entry advocates)

    Albanese, Laura
    Arthurs, Wayne
    Balkissoon, Bas
    Bartolucci, Rick
    Bentley, Christopher
    Bradley, James J.
    Brown, Michael A.
    Brownell, Jim
    Caplan, David
    Carroll, Aileen
    Chan, Michael
    Colle, Mike
    Craitor, Kim
    Crozier, Bruce
    Delaney, Bob
    DiNovo, Cheri
    Dombrowsky, Leona
    Duguid, Brad
    Duncan, Dwight
    Flynn, Kevin Daniel Fonseca, Peter
    Gerretsen, John
    Gravelle, Michael
    Horwath, Andrea
    Hoskins, Eric
    Jaczek, Helena
    Jeffrey, Linda
    Johnson, Rick
    Lalonde, Jean-Marc
    Levac, Dave
    Marchese, Rosario
    Matthews, Deborah
    McGuinty, Dalton
    McMeekin, Ted
    McNeely, Phil
    Meilleur, Madeleine
    Miller, Paul
    Milloy, John
    Mitchell, Carol
    Moridi, Reza Orazietti, David
    Pendergast, Leeanna
    Phillips, Gerry
    Prue, Michael
    Pupatello, Sandra
    Qaadri, Shafiq
    Ramsay, David
    Rinaldi, Lou
    Ruprecht, Tony
    Sandals, Liz
    Smith, Monique
    Sousa, Charles
    Tabuns, Peter
    Takhar, Harinder S.
    Van Bommel, Maria
    Watson, Jim
    Wilkinson, John
    Wynne, Kathleen O.
    Zimmer, David

    Ontario Legislators who voted
    “Nay” to Bill 183

    Arnott, Ted
    Bailey, Robert
    Barrett, Toby
    Chudleigh, Ted
    Dunlop, Garfield
    Elliott, Christine
    Hardeman, Ernie
    Hillier, Randy
    Hudak, Tim Jones, Sylvia
    Klees, Frank
    MacLeod, Lisa
    Martiniuk, Gerry
    Miller, Norm
    Munro, Julia
    Murdoch, Bill
    O’Toole, John
    Ouellette, Jerry J. Runciman, Robert W.
    Savoline, Joyce
    Shurman, Peter
    Sterling, Norman W.
    Wilson, Jim
    Witmer, Elizabeth

  54. Steve says:

    I’m outraged with the Ontario College of Trades… They clearly have no idea what they are doing. I’ve been hassled with phone calls about being an electrician apprentice while I wrap up my Industrial Mechanic Millwright apprenticeship.. I’ve been told I have to pay twice the membership fee for being in two trades. When I call them they tell me, no I only have to pay one fee. Yet I get letters saying the opposite. Apparently I only need to pay one membership fee, until I get another letter saying I’m overdue payment on the other. To top it off, I’ve been waiting over 1 month for the results of my C of Q exam for Millwright… I call them to inquire whats taking so long… They have LOST my exam! I am fed up!!!!

  55. Lynx says:

    They can stuff it. Thirty years of experience is going under the table.

  56. stuart gibb says:

    had a visit from from Ontario college of trades enforcement officer a few days ago. myself and a partner run a auto repair shop for the last 17 years with 5 techs, 1 at school at this time. the officer was on a cash grab went into the shop checked the licences and and told the 2 techs they were expired. even though they were not going by our dates before this Ontario college of trades came in. they were told pay now or you cant work on cars, they called on the spot with credit cards and renewed. i have been licensed for 30 years renewed mines 2012 for 3 years and was told it expired 2013 and asked do i wish to pay now i said no. i was then told i cant work on cars or diagnose in my own shop .so this is how it works, hey boss any idea what is wrong with this car, yep but i cant tell you as i am not licensed. what is wrong with this picture. and before you ask me why did i not pay it. simple it is a cash grab pay now or close your shop down.

  57. Questo says:

    Stuart, Its the unfortunate way our province was turned into it. These OCOT should be asked to closed their business the sooner the better. No compulsory trades had voted for this crap, they call them selves self regulatory cash grabs.
    If all the compulsory trades get together and tell the government, either stop this insane creation or we all will stop working, and occupy the queen park until they abolish this so called college.

    This liberal government is corrupted and incompetent, this isn’t the way to create jobs. The government allowed the ECRA creation to screw the small electrical business, on the foolish wishes of a few electrical companies, now this one, soon part of crown assets may be sold, signs of desperation for founds.

    Like your business, everyone should close the business and send the employees to EI, on front of these cronies. At least for temporary, in front of the local media TV, if a lot doing this will turn the public furious.

  58. David Palmer says:

    Please do not be in the opinion that I am stating that I am better than anyone, as that is definitely not my intention.
    I was in the construction industry for 39 years and a Red Seal electrician for 35 years after a 4 year apprenticeship. Those years saw me work in 10 different countries for 16 years, be a resident of the USA for ten years and realize a salary that was beyond my wildest dreams when learning to wire houses during the beginning of my apprenticeship. How I remember the winter winds blowing through open windows. while splicing with finger less gloves.
    During those years I sat in many different classroom for at least 3000 hours, building my knowledge base in VFDs/SCR Systems for speed and torque control of up to 1300 hp motors, PLCs, hydraulics, pneumatics, instrumentation, communications, mechanics, welding/fabricating, air conditioning (largest compressor changed out was 25 ton), refrigeration, sewage treatment plants, water makers, oily water separators, fire alarms, closed circuit cameras, 50 ton electric cranes, hydraulic cranes, Caterpillar equipment electrics, LMI systems, plus much more.
    The American company that I was employed by, enrolled me and paid for any schooling that I asked for, including travel costs, hotels, food and 50% of my salary while in school and traveling.
    I am not a fan of most everything that the government is involved in and would much rather see the College of Trades operated by all the unions (not a union member) and overseen by the government.
    in my opinion the CoT is a great idea, that will soon be mired in so much government red tape and corruption it will be a whirl pool of discontent.
    Having ALL TRADES be certified, in my opinion is a great idea and should have been done 30 years ago.
    Upon returning to Canada four years ago, I am very disappointed in the quality of trades people that I have employed during this and which is my eleventh home build.
    The quality of the trades were in my opinion (for the most part) of the quality I would have encountered in a third world country and even worse. Yes I know there are very good trades people out there….where?
    These useless non-certified trades people, cost us thousands and thousands of dollars, with the damage they created and cost of repairing.
    There is in my opinion, not one viable reason to not certify every worker, no matter what they do and those workers should be responsible for doing the job correctly or be fired if not trainable. I would rather pay a trained and certified trades person much more than the going rate of a flunky then hire a flunky. Its cheaper in the end!
    Why in the name of whatever, would a person not want to attend school to be educated and be able to choose whom you work for and or have the knowledge to start your own company.
    When you are uneducated, you become a slave to your employer and the winds of the ups and downs of the economy. Dig you heads out of the sand and live up to your potential.
    Geez, I am 68 and will be attending adult courses in Math this winter.
    Search the internet, certified trades people are earning up to $180,000.00 per year in booming areas. Grab a piece of the pie and a huge piece.
    in my opinion Canadians have become fat and lazy and for the most part, non-competitive in the world market,..we are living off the sale of our in the bank natural resources…the bank will soon be NSF and the politicians in my opinion, don’t give a rats a……!
    GO TO SCHOOL, GET TRAINED AND CERTIFIED or get out of being in the trades, as I don’t want you non-trained and or non-certified people on my site.

  59. Questo says:

    David Palmer, your comment is interesting, do you think a lot of certified trades people and others wish to became, had or could be lucky as you were? Think again, not all trades need to be certified, only those are compulsory, and you may have missed the reality of the OCOT.

    You don’t seems to understand how Ontario economy really works, as a diversity of peoples. Calling Canadians Lazy?, does not seems to match what you describe your self as above, also calling none certified people as flunkies?
    There are good and bad in both sides.

    Does not look good on you, very disrespect full, There are a lot of uncertified trades people with more knowledge then you, in diverse trades.

    I am certified for 35 years, in two continents and knowledge able in different
    countries, paid all by me only. I know your trade inside out body.

    A question for you? as you describes you could do 1300hp electric motors, maybe assumed, as 9/ 12 leads soft start and three phase 575volt, now what about a single 1hp 220/380/440volts three phase, working only at the supply 120 volts power and neutral, can you do it? I saw this done by a none certified electrician, here in this province, called by you as flanky.

  60. David Palmer says:

    Have you all thought about why the government has setup the CoT. Yes the government is wringing us a wet towel in order to bring in more revenue for their, in my opinion, poor quality of and inept leadership in all areas that they are associated with.
    I have only resided in Ontario for four years and the number of times that I hear about poor quality of trades persons and experienced it, is unbelievable and it is not only in Ontario, it is throughout Canada and in the USA. Ask yourself, what is one of the reasons industry is leaving the continent, yes, cheap labor, although if we are skilled…we are more efficient.
    My writings were not to insult tradespeople, only for them to become educated, skilled and certified. it is not only learning your chosen craft, one must now have business and leadership skills to really advance. There is going to be plenty of university grads unable to find positions related to your craft and re-enter the work force in your craft…now you have some real competition.
    The one thing that I have learned through my journey of life, is that the more I learn, the more I realize how little knowledge that I actually have.
    No I was not lucky, as I am not of a person who has a memory that quickly picks up and retains information and therefore I must place much extra effort towards learning. Possibly my environment played a part, as I worked for an incredibly brilliant contractor for about 6 years during my apprenticeship and after, and the crew that I was on were all apprenticed journeymen wire men with high line experience.
    Even now at 68 I constantly research on the internet in regard to whatever I am interested in…do not have cable TV.
    The reason that I was chosen by the American firm was due to having a red seal certificate and an unrestricted contractors ticket….not luck. The industry that I was in, has a short temper and you are on the plane if you create or unable to stop downtime rapidly.
    Yes there are plenty of trades persons that have more knowledge then I, although I disagree with you 100% if you were to say they do not require education. Would you choose a surgeon that has performed a 100 surgeries of the same procedure and with no education or one who has performed a 100 of the same surgeries with seven years of university.
    Why even give a rats butt about the CoT, sign up, pay a few bucks, then you are in front of the line for the good positions, as all the rest with no certifications are kicking beer cans down the street and mumbling I could have if I would have.
    Always remember the golden rule, “he who has the gold, makes the rules”. In my opinion and for this instance, that certification is the pile of gold.
    In my non-professional assessment, I believe that trades people are looked down upon by the general public. Therefore why not show them that we are not only educated, we are skilled, we are also certified such as nurses, school teachers etc.
    These are tough times for all and my 3rd or 4th recession experience. There are going to be trades persons entering this country by the thousands to fill trades positions and all Canadian trades people are going to have to fight tooth and nail to compete. That means educating ourselves in order to compete. I guarantee the government will and is now allowing this.
    At my age, I do not have to prove myself with quizzes or tests, as I did that for 39 years on and off the job and survived.

  61. Questo says:

    David, I agree with you in a lot of your comments in general, but regarding the OCOT, only if this college was set up to help the trades and create development high end research in the tech world of innovation, but that’s not what this stands for.

    We the compulsory trades people were never asked for a vote, this was done wrong. Also those are part of this college agency are getting paid way beyond what it should, its greed above all wasting our tax founds. They not ganna clean the trades, they are, and will create more problems then we already have.

    Certified trades don’t need this insane agency. I never have any problem with all my certificates, some compulsory and some voluntary before this garbage.

    You did not answer my question? Also as you mention power transmission lines,
    will you know how to bring up step down transformers to towers, and post, without a Crain or boom machines in some areas when only tractors can go.?

    Me and others learn this long ago, with none certified trades people too. Also sometimes not even ropes or steel cables could be used to pull it up, so much vegetation around and could not be damage. Have you come across that in your career?

    I didn’t ask you for a test or quizzes, what I mention is part of a certified electricians from other parts of the world, also certified in here Ontario or in general Canada.

    I have to agree with you in the matter of our Ontario government unfairness ways toward all kinds of trades people.

    What needs to be done is: people like you and others to help the apprentices with your experience, not a couple idiots running for the money.

  62. David Palmer says:

    You continue to challenge me with can I do this and and can I do that and I will not answer.
    The only information that I will give you and possibly whoever desires to will heed my advice.
    During my career in electrical, I have crossed the Atlantic 96 times, flew in helicopters for at least 200 takeoff and landings, had to lay on the floor boards of a truck traveling through the jungles of Bolivia so as not to be kidnapped, been shot at twice, looked down the barrels of a 12 gauge shotgun and an M-16, stayed with 12 others (50 were taken off) on a jackup drilling rig that was listing 5 degrees whilst been pushed across the ocean floor and only held back back by the conductor pipe, had to sleep under a semi-trailer on a cot hung on cables in the desert of the middle east, so as scorpions, sand vipers and camel spiders would not bite me. My basic work week was 84 hours and was usually extended to 98 hours. If you have ever worked 84 days straight at 14+ hours, been woke up at up to 5 times per night to make repairs to equipment due “ill trained electricians” in the jungle heat and rain, you figure how to do anything, plus become very agitated to unskilled trades personal.
    Now that is out of the way.
    Who cares what some government employee is making. That fellow you refer to probably attended university and is driven to succeed and that is why I am spewing off to all trades people to become educated and certified.
    That fellow made what $160,000.00, geez, the CEO of the company that I was employed by was paid $80million one year, he paid me well, therefore I was satisfied.
    You stated that I should be helping apprentices and other people….I try! its my passion, although my wife continues to inform me that, I am flogging a dead horse.
    During my 23 year career in construction, I assisted in training at least 6 apprentices and just loved the experiences. I only had one that was non-trainable, not his vocation. During the last four years I have only reached one person with advice and he is now employed by a world wide company, doing very well and will quickly climb the ladder of management. He now has all my books related to electrical and refrigeration.
    I even spoke in a school to trades oriented students and was interrupted by the instructor many instances, as he did not agree with my advice to the students. I thought during the interupptions, hmmm, I have all this knowledge, drove an hour to speak and a “fellow who has been around, mostly around home” is contradicting me.
    I finished high school on the trades program and I have witnessed nothing has changed in regard to trades oriented students, they are just shoved in a corner.
    I didn’t have much interest in school, although something grabbed my attention with becoming and electrical apprentice and I even now being retired, am unable to stop researching and learning, and it is, I must admit, an incurable addiction of mine. That is why at 68 I will be back in adult school this fall, just for the enjoyment to learn.
    The days of only having experience are gone, dead, finished and if you desire to really excel and create a good income you require proper paper certificates that state you are a proven product.
    Although I received a very good salary and was invited to join the head office in Houston twice, I could have possibly doubled my salary if I had the management and communication skills and that was one very big mistake I made in not being educated in that area.
    If Ontario doesn’t like your certifications, go to another province, write their exams and make more money.
    You called me lucky, possibly, as my major electrical certificate has a Canadian and an American flag on the top and that definitely made an impression with the personal manager in Houston.
    You will not change the system and really, why waste your energy?

  63. Questo says:

    Dave, the reason I had ask the questions to you, was because you seems knowledge able in a lot of areas, you may have encounter this rare things as I mention done by none certified trades people. There are a lot of uncertified trades people very smart and unable to take the certifications, for various reasons.

    I was military draf, and worked similar to you when I was very young, but only in natural disasters not in hot military zones, Man, you were very lucky, in special in these gorilla areas,

    Also later worked 16 dally hours plus weekend over time for a while in factory renovations when some people got sick. Yeah, in health ways, its not good for none of us.

    I was correct in my thoughts about you, in the matter of your knowledge.
    Regarding school matters its bad when some of us trying to help, and pushed aside, I know the filling. We are loosing human resources, and the young are learning with a lot of idiots.

    Good luck going back to school, I am in school for higher level of career education, in my field, hope goes well.

    Dave in my opinion why can’t you write a book, part of your human history and part of your career?

    I am thinking in write one, because I went trough a lot, and worked in variety of projects, Including geo-thermic power generators.

    Best regards to you Dave,

  64. David Palmer says:

    I just want Canadian tradespeople to be skilled, respected by society and proud of whom they are, as they should be.
    The doors just open for advancement when educated and work is much easier, and so much more enjoyable when you know what, why and how.
    No one would read the book.

    • Clare Wilson says:

      Is it not time that David and Questo stop the bantering and really get to the point!!!!!!
      Yes we have all been in this trade with a 309a red seal (which in point was never in contention,) I pose a question to David and Questo…….. 1-have you contacted and had conversations with the the COT. ,,,,If so what were your concerns expressed in those conversations. The largest concern should be the lack of representation of the certified trade members in a region out side of the economic mecca called the GTA..I was schooled by extreme professionals,over 30Yrs ago,,,
      listening to your garbage has only fueled my fire to find a resolve to the ever lasting ? of how do you ever eliminate the influence of government!!!!!!!!!!!!…..
      That said !! We all know the answer to that…Moving on………………..If you are really concerned with educating and advancing the (trainable apps)then quite possibly you should apply to the college and advance your cause?????

  65. Hi Clare,
    Tough words and taking on these these two guys with your comments, got to hand it to you. ……terrific.

    So David and Questo…..Any comments to Clare.

  66. Questo says:

    Clare Wilson, its not COT it is OCOT, Ontario College Of Trades, yeah I contacted these cronies more then once, its there way or the highway.

    If you search this blog in previous comments you will see some of my comments describing my concerns to them, with no answers so far.
    Private info were made public on there data base without the trades people consent. They say data was made compulsory trades automatic on their system, why they need ones consent on their forms?

    We the Compulsory trades did not vote for this like others did, for example the Teachers college voted for theirs in 1997.

    There was no need for this kind of side agency, we were paying to the MTCU every three years, no tax, now you know its $120 a year plus tax, according to them to protect the costumers, yeah the ECRA preach almost the same, now you know how much is to lease their license.

    Certified trades people became targets for some governments creations side agencies. The MTCU exist for this matter of certification, in the compulsory trades. They should take more responsibility of the matter instead outsourced.

    I agree with Dave in the matter of Certified trades people need to be respected, as professionals. Dave shows a grate example of his career, hard working, desire for knowledge, capable of handle his work in precarious situations.
    If certified trades people aren’t respected, will not became attractive, and is more to lose then gain.

    Thanks for your recommendation in advance knowledge, I did that, and still going up to the level engineer in my field. So should those can afforded or get founds to support them, or desire to do so.

    As you mention education in the electrical field long ago, yeah me too, 26 years ago I encounter grate teachers in George Brown College in Toronto, so was in Europe middles seventies and the begin of eighties in the Military College.
    Education is the key for advancement, but also hands on work.

    I am in this field for 35 years, and worked in diversity of projects in two continents, I understand what Dave concerns are, about be certified.
    Also there are a lot of uncertified trades intelligent people out there, could became certified, if things made easy and more attractive.

    I was in Europe last year for family and business trip for three weeks, a certified trades people there is treated with respect, not like he/she needs to be policed.
    Certification is for life in some countries and my cert, still valid no fees any form.

  67. David Palmer says:

    There is life out there, I thought you had all died.
    First of all- there is really no bantering between Questo and I, we are just having a conversation. I enjoy Questo’s remarks, as he dukes it out and it appears you may also.
    Second-, what the sam hill is an extreme professional? is this the superman of tradesmen.
    Thirdly-you will never in a billion years achieve the task of getting government out of your life or to be efficient…it is the nature of the beast! Just get your training in order, education and write the dang burned ticket. who cares about $120.00/year, you spent that on a dinner or more.
    This CoT is just starting and in the commissioning stage, there will be hiccups, mistakes, changes, whatever, until the throttle is opened full and then hopefully it is phased over to the unions on a whole. No, not a union member, just feel they would be better at it and the regulations affected all tradespeople.
    If you have the initiative and drive to achieve the credentials and Ontario or any other province, state, country, jerks you around, go where the money is, rewrite your ticket in the area that pays the money . IT ALL BOILS DOWN TO MONEY.,everything does!
    I have been harping about certifications and education, it opens doors that are locked to people who will not educate themselves, in whatever their chosen craft, whether trades, medical, law, contractors, politicians, whatever.
    Fourth-Apply to the college to advance my cause. All that I want and have ever wanted, in regard to trades persons, is to have them take an interest and be the best they can be. I am not some guru, wizard, or genius, just an ordinary person, who, with limited resources (brain power), did the best he could do (actually not) and want the best for all trades persons.
    As some of you may have guessed, I worked in the international oilfield for 16 years. This is when I realized, how I had missed so many opportunities to be involved in unbelievable incredible challenges related to my electrical career and the opportunities for advancement and monetary reward. These rewards are not only limited to the oilfield, there are opportunities in all trades related to your company, your city, your country, the world.
    Get your head out of the sand, the world is changing and at an extremely rapid pace, you either keep up or eat dust.
    I witnessed in the company that I was employed with (now +-) 28,000 employees, change so dramatically, with changing out from western trained technical personal to 3rd world personal, it was unbelievable. I see this happening in Canada, as there are companies replacing Canadians with immigrants now.

  68. Questo says:

    Dave, if you decide to write a book about your career, which you had expressed, no one will read it, you may be surprised, anyway if you will decide and give a try, in here is a contact for you: Contact George Noory radio show,

    when you open this you can search for his phone number. Ask him about the editor in California, the one which can take the most controversial issues.

    If you decide I wish you good luck.

  69. Phil says:

    I am neutral to the $135 fee every year, even though I used to pay $60 every three years for a better service B-F-D. What aggravates me, is that I have been out of trade school for less than 3 years and I have to hear about Plumbing Code updates from other apprentices who have just completed a school session! Seriously College of Trades? Is it that hard to send a letter to your current licensed trade members making them aware that there are updates to the code (let alone, a new code book) and give us a link that sends you to a website where you can buy a new code book.
    Get it together guys- I wouldn’t mind the massive increase in membership fees if I felt that I have someone on my side making my job easier.

  70. Rod Stiffington says:

    I for one am happy the gov’t is finally cracking down on all unlicensed cowboys who do shoddy work and leave the consumer to pick mup the pieces.

    Professional license fees are the norm is most professions, so cry me a river that you all gotta pay the college of trades for yours.

    Sounds like a bunch of rogue contracter cry babies who will no longer be able to cheat the public.

  71. Three mandatory licenses for a self-employed residential electrician and thousands of dollars if fees are a legalized robbery by the Ontario College of Trades and the Electrical Safety Authority.

    Ontario College of Trades and Electrical Safety Authority, roll-back licensing fees that ESA increased by 3000 percent or so virtually overnight in on July 1, 2006 and then OCOT jacked it up by 500% or so on January 1, 2013.

    Stop the abuse, unfair treatment, overcharge, etc.

    People join us in a class action if you think OCOT and ESA are parasites and sue them together with us!

    Class action lawsuit is the only way to stop this legalized crime!

  72. John Baird says:

    I would like to know what this so called governing body actually does besides taking hard earned money out of people’s pockets. With a 600% increase to be certified and the ministry still enforces licensing and conducts CofQ exams.I am sure we are funding a bunch of fatcats with so called titles because i have yet to see one of these clowns on a job site doing their so called enforcement.

  73. Jason says:

    As an apprentice, I got caught up in the transition to the OCOT. I received a letter, stating that I am a “member” of OCOT, yet I did not sign up to be a “member.” Now, the exam deadline has come and gone, without me successfully passing the exam. This means that I cannot work in the trade, until passing the exam. If I continue working , I am working “illegally.” OCOT is doing a fine job by putting people out of work.

  74. DAVE HILLIER says:


    • David L says:

      Best of luck..I’m in

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